Issue 19: The Sandman Book Club (part 3)

Once again, we're walking the moonlit path of dreams and discussing The Sandman. In this episode, we're talking about the fifth and sixth volumes: A Game of You and Fables & Reflections. 

Mike: I don't think I'm getting a birthday present. I am relatively certain that they want to fire me out of a cannon into the sun

Jessika: Hello. And welcome to Ten cent takes the podcast where we cause whiplash from rapid time leaps, one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frasier and I'm joined by my cohost, the curious collector, Mike Thompson.

Mike: Man, my collection has been growing by leaps And bounds lately.

Yeah. COVID has not been kind to my closet free space. 

Jessika: Oh, well, and you recently gave me my first short box, So 

thing.

So 

Mike: I'm not sorry. 

Jessika: no, don't be, I needed a place for the, my, I looked over at my, at my bookshelf one day and went, oh no, I have a lot of single issues that are just kind of sitting on a shelf.

Mike: you know, you're a collector when you just have the random piles of single issues hanging out, 

Jessika: I just have random piles of trade paperbacks. And just like, my counter is literally covered. Not only do I have every one of the Sandman series, just like chilling on my counter. I got, um, moon girl and, uh, 

um, devil devil dinosaur, and that's just chilling. So I've just got all this stuff, like all over.

Mike: Yeah, it's a, it's insidious. It takes over.

your life. One issue at a time. 

Jessika: Well, what better way to fill a tiny house shaped like a pirate ship than with comics.

Mike: Hm. Fair. 

Jessika: If you haven't listened before the purpose of our podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest weirdness and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. This episode, we are returning to our book club and we will be looking at volumes five and six of the Sandman series.

If you haven't checked out the first couple episodes of the series, I highly recommend you go back and take a lesson. It's episodes 15 and 17.

Mike: Yeah. And we're covering two volumes at a time. 

Jessika: Yes, we are. So 15 was one and two and 17 was three and four. So you're joining us for five and six. So welcome aboard.

Mike: Welcome to the deep end of the pool children. you don't get an inner tube and we don't have any water wings. Sorry. 

Jessika: There's absolutely no lifeguard on duty. We are not responsible Dulce at this time.

Mike: If You are enjoying our podcast, please go ahead and rate and review on whatever platform you're listening on. If that's an option it's especially helpful. If you can rate us on apple podcasts, there's a lot of discoverability, , or if you have overcast, you can always do a star for the episode and that'll push promotion as well.

Or if you're a comic fan and you're liking what we're talking about, and you've got some friends who you think would actually enjoy it?

as Well, please let them know any little bit helps. We really appreciate all of you who are spending your time with us.

Jessika Audio: We also want to support other podcasts that we really like in this space. So this week spotlight is on the last comic shop podcast. Here's a quick review of what to expect from them. If you want us to feature your show, go ahead and drop us off.

 

Jessika: 

before we leave into our main main topic, Mike, what is one cool thing you've read or watched?

Mike: I was on hooplah the other day and I came across a new series by Jeff Lemire, who is the guy who wrote Sweet Tooth along with a bunch of other excellent. But it's called Gideon Falls and they have the first five volumes on there. it's a really interesting series. It starts off feeling kind of like a horror supernatural thriller involving a Catholic priest who comes to this town and he's very quickly wrapped up in nefarious things going on and it's really creepy.

And then there's a B- story involving a guy who is in this kind of weird dystopian, urban environment, far away from the small town of Gideon falls. as the story continues, it morphs from being a, , supernatural horror murder mystery into a bit more science fiction and mad science while still keeping those original vibes.

, and also there's a lot of personal tragedy involved with the main characters. That's really cool to read too, which I mean, that's what Jeff Lemire does is he writes these things that just, they make you a lot of times feel like you need to watch Schindler's list for a pick me up. They're excellent, but they are brutal at times.

so after I read that, I then proceeded to read through the, what if omnibus that they had on hooplah and I needed something a little bit lighter to cleanse by. 

Jessika: That's very relatable. Definitely been in that situation myself.

Mike: but what about you? 

Jessika: Well, I have, I recently purchased the book herding cats, which is a black and white anthology comic by Sarah Anderson

Mike: like this is the woman who did hyperbole and

a half, right? 

Jessika: yes. Yeah. And also the one that I've spoken about before fangs.

Mike: Yeah. The love story between the vampire and the werewolf. 

Jessika: Aha. Aha. 

Mike: Yes, I listen. 

Jessika: you do, you're very good, probably multiple times because we record and then edit and relisten relisten. And

this style of comic is definitely way different than the fangs one. , it's more of a simple design and it's just, it's a really fun time to begin with. I highly recommend her stuff to begin with. So hurting is a part of her Sarah scribbles collection. And if you've seen some of those strips floating around online, they're pretty cute. each page of the book is showing like a small relatable instance about daily. And it's definitely a mood booster. If you're looking for a different palette cleanser, this is definitely it, it kept me giggling the whole way through.

And despite it's title, it's definitely not a whole book of cat Comics. I promise. Cause I'm not necessarily a cat person per se. I mean, they're fine, but I'm, I'm not a cat person, 

but you will see some in there. 

Mike: I'm more of a cat person 

than you are 

Jessika: You've truly are you are with your little dog 

cat. 

Mike: the Duchess Sprocket fonts adipose. 

Jessika: Oh goodness. The names we give our pets. I swear. I think the most fun part about this book though, is that there's also a section at the back. , and it has advice to young artists and it's complete with Comics to go with the advice, which is super cute. 

Mike: Oh, that's awesome. That's really cute. 

Jessika: Yeah. That's really sweet.

All right. Now onto the meat of our episode, this one's going to be a chunker buckle up everyone. So volume five of the Sandman series is titled a game of you and was published in 1991 and 92 it's composed of issues. 32 through 37 of the Sandman series and was written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Sean McManus.

Colleen Duran, Brian Talbot and Stan. 

We begin our tail in somewhere called the land and voices stadium may needed to find help and that the lane was in great peril and that they were waiting for the person, destined, to save them. Ultimately, one of the voices states their decision to go find the person that is supposed to save them.

Meanwhile, Barbie, which was a surprise for me to see her again, is a woken by her neighbor, Wanda. And it's revealed that even though she sleeps, Barbie is unable to dream. 

Mike: And we should note who Barbie and Wanda are, because the last time that we saw them was in the doll's house and Barbie at the time had been married to a yuppie named Ken who, when the dream, the vortex, was that what it was the dream for techs. 

Jessika: Yeah, it was the dream vortex caused by Rosewall.

Mike: Yeah. So when the dream vortex hit and. Ripping everybody's dreams into one another. There's this weird kind of overlap. Ken and Barbie had some sort of a fight. We don't know exactly what about, but it was basically, I think it was tied to the fact that Ken was, he was an eighties, yuppy, Wallstreet, wannabe, and his fantasies involved, things that Barbie found kind of testable.

And then Wanda was the landlord, right? 

Jessika: No, actually that was a different person, 

but, um, Wanda. Yeah, Wanda's a new, person and she's in the new place. The Barbie moves to,

Mike: Okay. Like I totally read that wrong. I have spent, I've spent decades thinking that Wanda was the same person as, 

Jessika: I 

Mike: uh, 

Jessika: name now, 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: but he was, he was queer in the sense that he was like cross-dressing, but not necessarily like, he wasn't necessarily trans from my understanding.

Mike: Yeah. but the other thing is that on the back of the book, I think they sit there and they refer to the drag queen.

for, for this volume, 

Jessika: oh, well that's just rude. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: That's just transphobic.

Mike: yeah. Hold on. Let's, let's take a look at this now. 

Jessika: Well, I am going to yell about the transphobia, so we'll , just wrap it up now. We'll get started here.

Mike: Yeah, so it's literally the promo text on the back is taken apartment house, add in a drag queen, a lesbian couple, some talking animals, talking severed, head, a confused heroine and a deadly Kuku. So I don't think that's on Neil Gaiman. I think that's more DC comics than anything else, 

Jessika: I agree. That was whoever was writing the cover script.

Mike: but that is something that, because I read that description, I thought it was the landlord Hal from doll's house, because Hal was someone who clearly was like tight with Barbie and also had a drag persona? 

Jessika: there was a one-off statement about how pal gave her be addressed to the landlord for this place where she moved to New York. 

Mike: I missed that. Okay. 

Jessika: It's again, one of those, you know, I'm glad I could catch something you didn't. Cause it's usually the other way round.

Mike: Yeah. No,, but honestly between that and, the, uh, the promo text on the back, I thought that one had moved on from her assigned gender and was now living in her actual identity. But that was clearly not the case. And that was a little confusing to me. But the other thing is that, you know, the art style had changed.

And so I wasn't sure if it was just a new artist rendering an old character. So on me. 

Jessika: that's caught me a few times though, where I'm like, wait, the art's a little bit different. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Am I like, is this the same character? And I had to kind of suss out who the character was , which is fine. It was easy enough, 

Mike: That's kind of shocking that they sit there and still identify Wanda as a drag queen. Like these days 

Jessika: yeah. 

Mike: anniversary book. 

Jessika: Yeah. That was very disappointing to me. didn't realize that. And that just

Mike: Not great. 

Jessika: Neil, that one probably wasn't Neal. 

Awesome. It was God dammit. 

Mike: I doubt it was like, I don't, that, reeks of marketing . 

Jessika: Well, there are absolutely people who write the, the covers and whatevers.

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: So Barbie is living once again, an eclectic type living situation, but has moved to New York. Like we were saying beside Wanda, her neighbors include a lesbian couple named Hazel and Foxglove and a seemingly square bear of a young woman named Thessaly and a middle-aged man named George, who seems to keep to himself for the most part.

Barbie also gets very creative with her makeup for the day, painting a black and white checkerboard onto half of her face. And Wanda has decided that spite their lack of money, they should go shopping and at Tiffany's even,

Mike: Yeah, I really liked Arby's makeup because it felt very much like what you see on Tech-Talk these days, which is all optical illusions and cool stuff like that. So, Neil Gaiman, oddly prescient, or the 1990s.

Jessika: He's doing us good right now.

So we quickly cut to the dream realm where Dream is talking with Matthew, the Raven and his son, something happening in a far part of the dream realm, that there was some sort of transition. We zip back to Barbie and Wanda who are on the subway. A woman approaches them for change and Wanda brushes her off. While Barbie throws a of quarters in her cup, the woman becomes very upset when she sees that she is sharing the subway car with a puppy and starts yelling and panicking saying that she doesn't like dogs.

The dogs scare her and she exits the car. The first available stop then up the stairs and out of the subway onto the main road, still yelling about not liking dogs. She is immediately face to face with what looks like a giant yellow dog with a large mustache that had to be bigger than a bus. This thing was huge.

Mike: Yes, 

Jessika: And it didn't even really look like a dog, but that was probably the closest approximation to what you could call it, 

Mike: it's kind of this weird amalgamation between a Saint Bernard and a lion. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to say it. 

Mike: as we learn we have seen him before in Barbie's very kind of like Alison Wonderland meets Lord of the rings dreams that she was having before the events of adult's house. 

Jessika: Yes. And we will definitely be talking about those 

Mike: No. 

Jessika: and the woman upon seeing this huge dog what's herself and then faints meanwhile, Wanda and Barbie have made it to their stop and go forward breakfast prior to their shopping spree. After being asked about the subject, Barbie explains that she hasn't been able to dream after a weird night back where she used to live.

And after that point, things fell apart with her relationship with Ken, she said she stopped communicating with him anymore and they weren't really being intimate. And then Ken found another woman and was like bringing the other woman over, even though Barbie was there. It was super wack.

Mike: Yeah, And I mean, I dunno, good for her for, knowing right out of that situation.

Jessika: Yeah, exactly. She didn't deserve that. 

Mike: No, 

Jessika: So pan back to giant dog thing who is looking super rough, it.

Mike: uh, 

Jessika: He's still trying to complete his quest, even though he's limping along, the police are trying to cordon off the area and Barbie and Wanda are passing along that same way. Barbie recognizes her friend calls him by name Martin. And as he's trying to make his way towards her, the police fire on him from multiple angles, he falls in a heap to Barbie's feet and tells her that she needs to go back.

The land needs her and gives her the serpentine, which appears to be a large pink stone in an ornate fitting on a necklace, one a pulls away as Martin dies from his injuries. She gets Barbie home and helps her into her apartment. And Barbie realizes that the necklace was from her dreams.

And then her whole room fills with blackbirds who turn white, which was, that was a wild thing.

And outside the door, George seems very interested in the situation and tries to ask Wanda, but she just brushes him off. 

Mike: Right. And it's , kind of creepy, like his demeanor is that he seems like that weird sorta infatuated in cell who's uncomfortably interested in one of his neighbors. 

Jessika: yeah, he's like at the door with his head down. He's like post Barbie. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I wish you could see me, everyone. Cause I'm just like girl.

then he goes and grabs a whole ass Raven and puts it in his mouth and swallows it whole and grinning the whole time and mentioned the.

Mike: Yeah, by that point in time, it's not surprising that he is off in a creepy, supernatural way. there've been enough weird little hints about them throughout the issue. 

Jessika: Yeah. He's just kind of a lurking most of the time, which is very strange. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: There's a whole lot of other apartment drama, of course. And , Hazel was taken advantage of while drunk and is now pregnant, but hasn't told her partner Fox glove. she's also pretty naive about how reproduction works in the first place, which is super depressing.

Like she didn't know basic things.

Mike: It felt like she was written to be unbelievably dumb about this one topic, even though she's in a queer relationship in New York, she works as a chef. And when we're first introduced to her, she seems very no bullshit because when we first meet her, it's Wanda trying to get milked for Barbie and Hazel is like, kind of. Antagonistic towards Wanda. And you're not sure if it's because she's possibly transphobic or if she's just not a morning person, because they let Wanda come in and grab some milk and it just seems like they're kind of cranky people who are not thrilled to be woken up in the morning. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Mike: But then like later on, she has these moments that are just, literally unbelievably naive and I don't think her character was written like she should have been. I don't know. I, I'm curious if, when they do an audio book of this, if they ever get around to it, how Gaiman's going to rewrite her. 

Jessika: Yeah. Same as I, I just think, yeah, there was a lot missing from this character. Just didn't feel like you said believable as a character, just in all of these different pieces to her.

So Barbie is still waking out a bit about her experience and with the birds and everything else, and Martin 10 bones, all that stuff, and tries to decompress while watching TV. And she starts drifting in and out of sleep. And by extension in and out of the dream realm, Nuala actually does show up again. I know we had said prior that we weren't sure if she does, but she does,

Mike: yeah. And new Allah was the ferry who had been given to Dream as a gift in volume four without her consent, by the way, it was kind of like surprise you now serve the dream Lord, 

Jessika: Yeah. You're not coming home with me. Sorry. This is now your problem. 

Ugh. 

Mike: which, I mean like, admittedly, we all kind of wish that we could do that with our siblings at one point or another, 

Jessika: well,

Mike: I mean, 

Jessika: my brother doesn't listen to this anymore, so it's fine.

Oh goodness. So Nuala does show up and she tries to warn Barbie. That shit is about to get complicated at which point Barbie does fall asleep and passes into the dream. cut to creepy George, who is cutting himself open. He pulls open his chest, exposing his ribs, where a bunch of blackbirds had evidently been waiting and subsequently fly out of him.

The other members of the apartment complex start having weird and awful dreams and the birds visit each sleeping individually individual thusly catches the bird, trying to harass her and with a glance at ignites in her hand, which affects George. This is the first real glimpse of the idea that thusly may not be the quiet innocuous individual that she first seemed to be.

And she then goes to see George at his apartment wielding a kitchen knife.

Mike: Yeah,

I thought that was really cool. And the thing is, is that that's actually a really good example of kind of game and doing , some misdirection because he doesn't drop any hints about her. All you get the idea of is that she's extremely straight-laced and kind of nebbish for lack of a better term.

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: yeah, and then she just busts out powers and she's really not featured much before this either, which was kinda. 

Jessika: yeah, And back in the. Barbie is having to reacclimate herself to her own dream character as she has only the fleeting memories of the night she spent there. And everybody in the building starts to awaken and the birds disappear. They're all shaken after their nightmares. And one by one thusly visits, the apartments of the other residents starting with Hazel and Fox glove followed by Wanda.

Leslie already knew the Barbie was in trouble and Wanda used her spare key to get into Barbie's apartment at Besley's urging and Barbie was out hold still in the dream room. Leslie asked Wanda to carry Barbie to George's apartment since Wanda was quote unquote the strongest and then Hazel who I'm sorry, is just dumber than a rock points to Wanda's genitals and says, Hey, you have a thingy, which firstly, take a step back, captain obvious.

And secondly, so the fuck what?

Mike: Yeah. And it goes back to that thing that we were talking about with Hazelwood. It's like, she is suddenly this very, almost childlike person, even though she is a grown ass adult and a queer relationship in New York city. Like, I dunno, it's, it's not great. It feels. Very clumsy.

Jessika: It sure did. And I think childlike is, is probably the best way to put it because it did feel that way. Like she was seeing something for the first time and it's like, girl,

Mike: it's like you're pregnant. This isn't the first time you seen one 

Jessika: seriously, 

Mike: anyway. 

Jessika: goodness. The party, Firenze, Georges gross poster size picture of Barbie that he has framed up on his wall 

Mike: Yup. 

Jessika: and is informed that Thessaly has killed George and he is in the bathtub. So Wanda's freaked out by all of this. Of course, I would also be very freaked out at this. not going to lie to you.

Mike: Also we need to, we need to Go back.

for a second and it's not that George is dead and in the bathtub it's oh no. George is in the bathtub and they go, oh, is he taking a shower? It's weird that he's taking a shower at 2:00 AM. And she's like, no, no, no, no. I killed him. And his body is in the bathtub and that's when the freaking out happens.

Jessika: Yeah, 

Mike: I thought that was great. I loved it.

Jessika: I did too. Cause definitely left the door open to George's house and everyone's like, George. Hello.

Mike: Yeah. No. 

Jessika: Oh,

of course one is freaked out and she says that she's going to leave and she physically cannot. As if by magic, Leslie also says that she is going to get George to talk and starts the disgusting process of doing so she has to remove his eyes, his face skin, and his tongue, this, she actually bid out, which was fucking as fuck.

Mike: Yeah, after it looks like she's kissing his skinless face. 

Jessika: Uh, yeah, was horrifying and nails these to the wall and then tells George that it's time to come back and horrifyingly. He does come back and WordStar coming from the face nail to the wall and it's gross. So thusly starts to interrogate him about his plans and he begins to tell the group the CU.

Wanda is disgusted and runs to the bathroom where she vomits and the rest of the group seemingly is surprisingly calm about the whole thing. I don't know that I would be personally, so Thessaly who is now out for revenge against the cuckoo for, you know, trying to fuck with her in her sleep states that she needs some menstrual blood and asks Fox glove.

And when she asks, why she has to with Besley reveals that she has not been straight in a long time, And that Hazel is pregnant, which they definitely do not have time to deal with at the moment. But hill was obviously shocked and upset by the news. And Wanda is told that she can't go onto the next part of their journey because she needs to watch Barbie.

But there seems to be an underlying reason after conversing with a being that seemed to be made of light stating that she needs to seek entry into the dream realm.

Mike: Oh

so it's actually, um, it's the threefold goddess who the fates basically who keep on showing up throughout. So it's, it's that, mother maiden crone, who normally, when we see them, it's, they're different phases, but they're all kind of part of the same amorphous black shape. So , depending on the artist, it's like, one being, but with like, you know, the three different identities at the same time, but it's also the. 

Jessika: Yeah. And I didn't get that. It was those three again, so thank you for,

Mike: That's something I caught, like on my second or third read through 

Jessika: Okay. Well, I feel better about a thumb.

Mike: it's. I mean, it's a fleeting moment. They only show up for like a page maybe. 

Jessika: Yeah, yeah.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: meanwhile, on the street, our friend, the I don't like dogs, lady is pointing out to a passer-by that the moon is acting strange, that it had disappeared from the sky. He states that it must be an eclipse, but she says that it just left. It was not like it gradually blacked out like normal eclipse.

So Wanda watches us the three women walk into the light and disappear out of the room and the moon reappears in the sky for our friend on the street, Wanda starts questioning her womanhood because she vomited during the interrogation that somehow has makes her less of a woman. But I would argue that I would do the same.

That whole situation was so gnarly.

Mike: Yeah. it's very pagan ritually. it feels like, old school kind of like druidic, I'm sure that someone's going to get mad at me for saying this, but , it's very pagan, a cult. I don't know the rituals, but it feels like a lot of those things that you read about and fantasy novels that are set in, like our theory and times. 

Jessika: Totally.

So the head then starts talking to. back in the dream realm, RB and company are making their way to their destination and have some near misses and find some other dead friends along the way the land has suffered since she has been gone, they talk about the cuckoo and how the bird lays its eggs and the nest of others.

And once hatch, the young cuckoos push out the other eggs or young of the bird who initially built the nest while also fesses up to Morpheus about having warned Barbie. But he agrees that she did the right thing, princess, Barbara, and party, get to their destination, the sea and send, lose the parrot to get help.

Mike: Yeah. And at this point there's only one other companion left. Who's like a, like an aardvark or an anteater. 

Oh, is it okay? That was some 

Jessika: It's a rat. It's like a, yeah, some rodent where it like 

Mike: and a trench 

Jessika: a order. Yeah. 

It looks like a reporter of a pie.

Mike: Yeah. And, as their journey has been going on, it's kind of like, , the group of friends in the horror movie who are slowly getting picked off one by one. and the one That always gets me is the monkey. And I can't remember his name. But he would scout ahead and then he didn't come back and Barbie at one point asks if they think that he's okay and one of them just goes no, and then they go and find his body and it's like, Hmm.

Hmm.

Jessika: Yeah. That was really.

And back at the apartment, this was a very web flashy, one where it's very back and forth. Uh, back at the apartment, Wanda is talking to George's face and she asks him why she was left behind. He says it's because she's a man stating that the moon Magic that was used can only be used by biological women, which yikes.

No, no, no, no, I don't. I don't like that one bed. And George also offhandedly states that they should be concerned about the weather.

So back in the dream realm, Luiz has betrayed Barbie and brings armed guards to their hiding place on the lift. And they also killed the last remaining member of the party. So Barbie is dragged away by the guards and then is paraded through the town into a small pink house.

Mike: Which is the house that she grew up. 

Jessika: It is, yeah. It turns out to be a replica of her childhood home. she is also confronted by someone who appears to be her as a child, which is strange. child Barbie starts explaining that she had basically possessed her dreams and was taking over. Barbie becomes more and more visibly weak from being , in the house and around the young doppelganger.

Ann Young Barbie leaves the house with her entourage of large dark plaid guards.

Mike: While dragging older Barbie with her. 

Jessika: Yeah. So back in New York things have started to get wild. A hurricane that had just left, turned around and heads back into town. The women walk a path of Moonlight to the dream realm where thusly fesses up that she's been around a pretty long time and starts in on her plan for revenge. I would not want to cross this lady. It did not take much for her to get pissed off enough to want to kill people.

Mike: I mean, I found it pretty relatable. 

Jessika: So they run across one of Barbie's failed companions who tells them that the cuckoo Barbie 

Mike: Well, they come across the body and then facily resurrects them in a similar manager that she did to George. 

Jessika: Correct.

Mike: Yeah. And that's how they're able to get him to talk. 

Jessika: So during the walk Fox glove and Hazel discuss their future and Fox glove decides to raise the child as theirs and they make up in a sense. in New York, the storm is raging. George is making terrible transphobic jokes from the wall and the woman outside has been caught in the storm. So one helps a woman get inside out of the storm, in the dream realm, young Barbie, as an acting and plan, and has gone out to the most ancient point of the land. The higher gram that's land her two companions start making their way over, but are met by young Barbie who points them over to the threat quote, unquote, stating that lose is the cuckoo and loses a parrot.

I might add. So the fact that she's saying the para did it is actually kind of a good assumption to make a Kuku. Fastly goes over confirms with the bird that she is in fact, the cuckoo and strangles her and snaps her neck. when Hazel asks why she did it, she says that the bird had to be taught a lesson.

The lesson was that you don't get a second chance, which yeah.

Mike: Yeah, Nestle is, uh, the epitome of don't fuck around. 

Jessika: yeah. found out.

then young Barbie explains to Barbie and the others that the time has come to do what she had been brought here for. Back in New York are I don't like dogs. Friend is named Maisie and she is rightfully creeped out by George's face on the wall siding, bad vibes, which agreed more transphobic questions on some stories from Maisie about another trans family member she had, .

It was just bad news bears. Barbie does a, she is told by young Barbie back in the dream realm and slams the porpoise teen into the large stone HIRA gram. And there's a great explosion at which point it's revealed the young Barbie is actually the cuckoo and that her goal, the whole time had been to get Barbie, to destroy the Portland teen and the high program.

And then the cuckoo wouldn't be held in the land any longer breaking the spell and the land would subsequently be destroyed. So the necklace also disappears right off of Barbie's sleeping chest back in.

Morphine's appears and Stacy, he created the land and puts Barbie back in control of her own mind as she had been Bewitched by the cuckoo and all of the characters of the land start filing past, ending with one dark haired and scarred woman in white, who clearly had history with dream, like every other fucking woman in here.

So vessel, he tries to claim the life of the cuckoo. But dream is like, Nope. And states that he's displeased, that she's caused some major shit.

Mike: Yeah, he was. If I remember, right. Dream was upset that she had trespassed into the dream realm without his permission. 

Jessika: Correct? Yeah.

Mike: And it's also implied that her getting the goddess to grant her and foxglove and Hazel passage to the dream realm resulted in the hurricane. 

Jessika: Oh no, that was absolutely implied. Yeah. The implication was that if you pull the moon out of the sky, 

you're going to fuck with the tides. Yeah. Yeah. so we turn again to New York where that storm is even fiercer than before. And then there is an explosion of weather from outside and the world starts to. In the dream realm, dream states that he owes Barbie a boon and also reveals that Rose Walker, from , our doll's house volume had partially caused this mess.

During that fateful night of converging dreams. Barbie asks that she and the other three women get back safe and sound, and they are sent back and we end volume five with a funeral Wanda's funeral. Barbie was pulled from the wreckage and was able to recover, but Wanda amazi did not make it.

The funeral was similarly depressing and not just because Wanda had passed away, but because they were using Wanda's dead name and it cut her hair and had put her in men's clothing. And she was buried by her family who clearly had no idea who she really was nor cared to listen to find out. And even the headstone had her dead name listed.

So Barbie took out a bright shade of lipstick and wrote Wanda on the headstone Barbie dreams that she sees Wanda with a smiling pale woman wearing black. And she finally seems happy.

Mike: do we ever find out where the funeral is being held? It's just, it's implied that it's vaguely south Midwest. 

Jessika: She had to travel. 

And it did kind of seem in the south. I don't know that we got an exact location. 

Mike: Yeah. It was, it. was somewhere, very God-fearing and intolerance of people that are the least bit different. 

Jessika: Yeah. Well, what were your overall impressions of this story and who are your favorite least very characters or events of the fifth?

Mike: Uh, you know, this volume is a really, it's an interesting change of pace because up until now, we've gotten stories where even if dream wasn't the main character, he played a really prominent role in the narrative, even if he was sitting in the background and this time around, he really doesn't show up a lot. And when he does, it's kind of just a bookend, the story. It's funny because whenever I talk about something that Neil Gaiman wrote and I'm like, oh, it's not my favorite thing. It's still better than 95% of things that I've read. this is not one of my favorite Sandman stories. Part of it is just because it's, it does provide that, that whiplash that you get where we're pivoting back and forth between the dream realm and New York.

And there is a clumsiness too, to a lot of the characters, like we've already talked about Hazel. I feel like new Haven was trying to provide a narrative where someone who is trans is human, because he has several scenes with Wanda where Wanda talks about it and is very adamant that she is a woman and the story, the narrative doesn't judge or mocker for that. But , as you said, George is gross and transphobic, which makes sense.

And, Maisie that the homeless lady is kinder. but you know, there, there is still that moment of are you a man or a woman? and then she relates the story about her grandson. it's not explained if he was just very femininely gay or if he was trans. Um, but she sounds like she was supportive of him, but then , he got killed during some sort of hotel hookup, which, I mean, that was a real risk with gay culture.

Like, you know, especially during that time. I think it's one of the Columbia, your stories of the overall Sandman series. I don't think it's bad, but viewed through a 20, 21 lens, I think he could stand some revision. I don't know. I, my, my opinion is pretty much my opinion, I think, has the least value in, in any conversation about gender identity, because I'm a CIS white guy. 

Back on track, uh, did it, did it, uh, you know, I, I did actually really enjoy how we got to see some of the characters from the doll's house return, especially Barbie. it's really frustrating that I kept on thinking that we had seen Wanda in the doll's house.

And it turns out that that was some misleading copy. That kind of made me think that like, oh, sorry. I liked how we got to see more of a strange fairies hill of a dream from that book and how it was spun out into a larger story that had a bunch of twists and turns. I don't know if I had a least favorite character, honestly, like, yeah, the Kuku is a hateful character, but I also thought it was kind of interesting that, that she was trying to kill Barbie so that she could exist.

And then I don't think the cuckoo shows up again. I think the cuckoo just like bounces after this, when she flies off. I for some reason, like, I remember when I thought the KUKA was going to come back and be an even bigger batter nastier villain, but I don't think that happens. I could be wrong.

It's been awhile, but I don't think it does. I thought was a really great character. Like we already talked about how, the way that they actually reveal that there's a lot more to where character and also how she is just straight out of Fox all the way through the story. and then, I guess, I guess my least favorite character is Hazel's character and it's not because of anything that was really wrong with her role in the story.

It was just, she was very clumsily writ. 

Jessika: Yeah,

Mike: like I said, I think she just comes across as dumb at the most convenient and unbelievable times. It's just, it's too coincidental where at one point she's asking about like, oh, well, don't, you have to kill a rabbit to like, what, what was it like she was asking about like to perform an abortion or, 

or 

Jessika: see if you're pregnant. Cause that 

Mike: yeah.

Like, come on, okay. 

Jessika: Yeah, actual most ridiculous thing. I know.

Mike: , I don't know.

Like, do you agree to disagree? Like, I feel like I might be reading too much into this just with my own thoughts, but 

Jessika: Oh no I was, I was pretty disappointed in how this whole thing was written. I'm not gonna lie to you. I was disappointed in the transphobia. Let's start there. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: It just felt like the entire volume, it may have been done with the intention of bringing to light some of the challenges that trans women face like deadnaming or of constantly being told that genitalia is what makes one, a woman or the idea that to do trans correctly, you need to get surgery or the blatant violence against trans people.

But I don't think enough was done to highlight someone doing the right thing and giving example of allowing someone to just live their life genuinely. And Barbie is a good example of a somewhat decent advocate, but I wish that the lesbians in the building had done more to be open or even just not completely stupid about the situation.

It just felt really TERF-y 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Which, you know, to, to explain for any of you who don't know a turf as it's trans exclusionary, radical feminist, which is just a way to say you don't want trans women in your fucking woman club for some fucking odd reason.

Mike: Yeah,

And I mean,

back in 1991, when this was written, that wasn't really a thing like, gender queerness, wasn't really a known thing. It was your transsexual 

like, did you ever see the movie soap dish with Sally field and Whoopi Goldberg and Elizabeth shoe and Kevin Klein? 

Jessika: No. 

Mike: It's a really funny movie up until the last 10 minutes, uh, where it's, it's about the cast of a soap opera and how the behind the scenes stuff is even more ridiculous than what's going on in the soap opera.

It's great. But then the last 10 minutes or so it's revealed that the villain who's been pulling everyone's puppet strings, , she's , publicly humiliated by being outed on live television as a trans woman. And that's the punchline. in, 1991, This was considered wildly funny. this is an example of how our views have changed in the past 30 years. for the better where we can look at this and say, this is, this is not great. 

Jessika: Yeah.

I mean, it's still happening though. And that's it, it's still a very real problem within the, you know, the LGBTQ plus community. 

Mike: a hundred percent. 

Jessika: Yeah. It's just in the end, I felt like there were no lessons learned by the people who had been the most transphobic.

Mike: Yeah,

I mean, cause George, we knew was going to be terrible. , and then Hazel and Fox glove, there was no. resolution on that because by the time that they get back, Wanda's dead. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yup. And which that also felt refrigerators. Like you're going to kill off the one trans person, like okay.

Mike: Yeah. And there's the, the happy ending of, we see Wanda perfect. And in this amazing dress with death, waving goodbye to say farewell to Barbie, which is it's. I mean it's 

Jessika: But she, but my problem with that is she looks a little bit different. Like she looks more feminine and 

she looks more in it's. That's not necessarily what, and I mean, I'm not trans, so I can't speak to this experience, but to me ha, having known people and talk to their experience, that's not necessarily what they want.

They don't want to be a totally different person. They just want to be them genuinely.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I certainly can't speak for people who are trans or gender fluid, or, or anything in that realm. Like that is well outside my wheelhouse. I can just say, I agree with you. It feels achy. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and yeah, since, no real lessons , were learned. I mean, maybe that's the real message that people don't fucking learn. And if so, thank you. That's goddamn. Depressing.

Mike: Yeah. The one nice moment was when Barbie wrote Wanda's name on her tombstone and the bright lipstick, that was nice because you know, it was loud and it was flamboyant and it was very much everything about Wanda's personality, but it was really dissatisfying as an ending. 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Did you have a favorite art moment in this volume?

Mike: I'm not sure that I had a favorite art moment, but I was really affected every time one of Barbie's friends died or where she found their bodies. like it, it genuinely made me sad. You know, I've already talked about how, when they found per natto, the monkeys corpse and how it was really sad, but Martin 10 bones and his expression right before the cop shot him, because he just looked, it was that look of, oh, I found my friend , and I've got the message, but like, it, uh,

it reminded me of the time that I'd take my dog into the vet to put them down. 

Jessika: Mm. Hmm.

Mike: you know, and that's,

it's, it's that moment where you, uh, when you're holding the dog and it's like, oh, everything's okay. And then they give him the shot and he gives you this look just fucking rips you apart every time.

So not really, uh, not really a favorite moment, but definitely in effecting one. 

Jessika: Oh, you're trying to get me go on to,

Mike: Yeah. Um, I dunno. What about you? 

Jessika: well, I really enjoyed how they did the color and line work and the moon. 

Mike: Yeah, those were cool.

Jessika: Yeah, it was neat to see how they use the negative space and implied shapes using lions. And it also made me feel like I was a part of the scene. There was almost like I had to shield my own eyes from the full white pages.

Mike: Yeah. that was, that was neat.

Jessika: any final thoughts about this volume before we move on?

Mike: like I said, it's not really my favorite.

I keep thinking about Hazel and Fox glove. And it's interesting because like Fox glove was, , the girlfriend of the woman who put out her own eyes with the forks or , the, the skewers and the diner, 

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah. I figured you were going to bring that up. I was, I was like, how can I condense this 

crazy story?

Mike: Yeah. And so that, I, that was kind of a neat throwback because I remember Fox glove is like a very, it's like a throwaway name or something like that. And then I think her name is Julie shows up in the jacket that she was wearing and her eyes , are not visible during the nightmares when everyone's being plagued by the Cuckoo's Binion's.

I will say that moment where Hazel and Fox glove are first in the dreaming and Fox lava sitting there and basically screaming at Hazel about getting pregnant and it feels like it's going to get real ugly. And she's like, when we get back, I'm gonna , call you all sorts of names and tell you how dumb you are and do you know how much it's going to cost for us to raise a baby. and she's like, we're going to have to buy one of those stupid expensive books to name the kid. And I was like, oh, Okay.

, and then they're holding hands by the end of that page. And it's, it's sweet. that story continues actually in a couple of mini series about death, that, that game in road.

And they're really good. they've got their own sense of tragedy and everything, but they're, they're solid, I don't know, it's not my favorite , but it does a lot of things that are really interesting. And I also think that it leads to some really cool stuff down the road. 

Jessika: Let's move on to volume six,

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: titled fables . And flections. This was originally published in single magazine form as the Sandman 29 through 31 38 through 40 50 Sandman special one and vertigo preview one between 1991 and 1993. So very much a true compilation

written by Neil Gaiman illustrated by Brian Talbot, Stan wool, Craig Russell, Sean McManus, Jon Watkiss, Jill Thompson, Duncan Eagleson and Kent Williams. And this was very much a, an anthology of a bunch of different stories that didn't necessarily tie together as a, an overarching plot like previous volume did.

Mike: Yeah. it's very much like dream country just with about double the cost. 

Jessika: Yeah, Yeah, exactly. The first story is fear of falling. A musical theater writer and director who is wanting to give up right before his show. While sleeping. He is visited by Morpheus who ends up inspiring him to take the leap of courage. It took to finish his project to completion. Next up was destined mirrors, three Septembers and a January the story of the emperor of the United States.

Here's the scene. San Francisco, 1859. Dream is drawn into a contest with his siblings, desire to spare and delirium, to see who could push a man to his death, each trying different tactics to try to lure him into one of those emotions. When Morpheus entered the scene, he basically just gave the man his exact dream.

He wanted to be king and Morpheus stated that he was the emperor of the USA. He starts making proclamations about his claim to the throne and starts gaining popularity and the charity of the town around him. And he actually becomes famous for being the emperor and is even sought after, by tourists, visiting San Francisco.

He has called crazy at times, but does not fall prey to madness desires, unable to tempt him as he already has everything he dreams of and despair was never in the picture. After his dreams came true.

He was truly content and dream had won the contest death swoops in looking stylish as ever and leads.

Mike: Yeah. And emperor Norton is actually someone who really existed in San Francisco. Like he's a part of our local history and 

Jessika: I 

didn't know that.

Mike: yeah, no he's emperor, Joshua Norton, the imaginary emperor. he's a really cool part of San Francisco lore and I highly recommend, , reading up on him if he ever get the chance.

he's one of my favorite stories about the city that.

I grew up in. 

Jessika: Oh, I'm definitely gonna look into that now. Cause I mean, I love just a Stone's throw away and I can't believe I've never heard that before.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: The next story is mirrors Thermador said in England in 1794 with Morpheus, just swooping into the home of Johanna Constantine. And I'm sure that name sounds familiar in the middle of the nights and I'm not going to lie. It was really creepy when he was just like Nabu, all your people are asleep, just you and I.

Sugar was like big. Nope.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: And then he's like, Hey, I have this super dangerous mission. UN she's all, but what's in it for me. And apparently she just believes in vague promises and agrees to help with him and with his family matter that he needs a mortal to intercede in. And it. Then it is post the French revolution. The reign of terror is in full swing and Johannah gets caught sneaking through the town late at night with a decapitated head in a bag, you know, casual

Mike: who hasn't been out on a Saturday night with a human head and their satchel come on. 

Jessika: Mr. Al of late God. Once you got my bag, nothing you'd be interested in.

So

She ultimately gets picked up by the law sands head and as kept as a prisoner under a further threat, if she does not tell them where the head is, this whole thing about like her spreading superstitions or some bullshit.

Mike: , Yeah, because robes Pierre was all about reason and eliminating superstition and religion. If I remember my high school history, 

Jessika: you are correct. Is that whole logic piece, which he was just going off about. So she dreams a little dream and visits, Morpheus and reveals that the head is Morpheus, a son Orpheus, 

so Joe had a basically says, this is your fight, but I'm in the ring little hope over here, Hugh the extra creep factor where the law rightfully figures out that she probably hit the head with all the other heads and go tell her to fetch the one they're looking for. Johanna gets the head, props it up, covers her ears. And tells Orpheus to sing. It drives the map, puts them in a trance unclear, but she is able to get away and get Orpheus to a little island paradise where he has previously been. We also come to find out that Morpheus is quite the absentee parent. , it was so sad. There was this part where Orpheus asks Johannah basically does this mean he cares about me and she's like, dunno.

Mike: Yeah, it's a,

anyone that's grown up with with strained relationships to their parents, like can just feel that gut. 

Jessika: Yeah.

The fourth story is convergence. The hunt. So we find ourselves this time in a story within a story. Uh, grandfather tells his begrudging granddaughter, a tale about a man named Vaseline who becomes obsessed with finding a Duke's daughter based on a measure painting that was given to him by a Romani peddler, as he goes off in search of this woman, he has never met.

He first encounters, the Romani peddler that had given him the miniature she is dead on the forest path, that he just swoops her bag of items and moves off through the forest. He meets several characters along the way, including Baba Yaga and a tall slender librarian, each particularly interested in one of the stolen items.

He was peddling one night while hunting a dearest his target is taken out by a woman of the forest who factors into the story a little bit later upon reaching the Duke's mansion. He is led to a dungeon to rot, but is saved by the tall librarian who really, really, really wanted that book because it turns out the book is from the dream realm and Morpheus would be 

very, very, 

displeased. Should it not be returned?

Mike: We've met the librarian before in passing, he's Lucy in the librarian of the dream realm.

Like he's the first one that Morpheus basically reintroduces himself to once he gets back to the dream realm preludes and Nocturnes, but like he doesn't show up a lot. , it's one of those things where he's kind of like a central figure to the dreaming, but he doesn't show up a lot in the stories.

, I don't remember. I think he may have appeared in passing in season of the mists. I can't remember, but anyway, sorry. His name is Lucien. Like that's, That's all I was trying to, 

right? 

Jessika: So in exchange for the book, Morpheus takes Vasily to the woman's room, but when he gets there, vastly simply looks at her and gives her the necklace back saying this belongs to you later on in his life. He runs back into the woman who took down the deer while there are both in Wolf form. And at the end of the story, the granddaughter assumes that her grandfather has made up the story to assuage her from dating her current boyfriend.

But an ending comment, lets the reader know that the story may have some truth after all.

Mike: that was one of my favorite closing modes. I I'm not gonna lie. 

Jessika: It was sweet. So our next tale distant mirrors. focuses on Julius. Caesar's next of Ken Augustus, who after a dream decides that he must live one day in the life of a beggar. So he calls upon an actor who happens to be a , little person to assist him in getting into the role for the day and show him the ropes. They start by making artificial boils on their faces and arms.

They dress and rags and take to the streets in a dream, he was approached by Morpheus who knew about his troubled past being brutalized by the man. He looked up to the man, a whole empire looked up to, there was also this whole situation with there being two different futures.

Augustus had read the prophecies, edited some destroyed others so that that overall people wouldn't know what was truly predicted. And so that he could make his own course of choosing by being a baker one day a year, he was not being watched by Julius and the other gods and therefore could plan without them watching after Augustus's death, the actor who had accompanied him that day wrote the story of his day with the emperor.

However, the harsh details of Augustus's life remained a mystery that he himself took to.

Next up. We once again, go back in time with convergence. Soft places. If you don't have whiplash yet, just wait. You will get it by the end of this episode. But this time we go to see Marco polo who was lost in the desert and having the most odd dream. He runs into a person who says his cellmate is named Marco polo and they that run into our buddy Fiddler's green or Gilbert, who we saw in the doll's house who tries to impart a lesson on Marco polo.

Marco thinks that he is going to be stuck in the dreaming, but when he emerges, he is back with his father and was only a few hundred feet away from the party upon waking Marco forgets the dream. He was just a part of

the Seventh story is the song of Orpheus we again, meet Orpheus this time, his head is still firmly attached to his neck and he is going to be married that day. His friend, is also at the wedding along with Morpheus and all of Morpheus as sibling. The bride reminds, era status of his long dead wife. And during the wedding, he requests a private meeting with Eurydice fading, a need for assistance.

He states his intention to rape her and goes to grab her, but she needs him and runs off where she steps on and is bitten by a poisonous snake and dies right there. Orpheus realizes that she is no longer around and panics asking if something has happened to her grieving, the loss of his bride Orpheus seeks help from berserk his father than his aunt death, demanding that she bring her back death states that she cannot, that Euridice is any underworld now, and that he is unable to go and come back as he is a mortal after more prompting, she does state that she is able to just not collect him basically.

And he would survive coming back from the underworld, but she also tells him that this is not what he wants and that he should go home. Or if he is however, it does the exact opposite and begins his journey to the gate death had described.

So he makes his way to the underworld where he's buried across the river sticks and makes his way past Cerberus the three headed dog and through the endless amount of people in the underworld, he gets to Hades and Persephone who asked him for a song.

And he asks for his wife back and plays a haunting melody that brings the underworld to a halt. Hades states that he could have his wife back, but that she will follow him as a shadow up and out of the underworld. The one rule was that he could not look behind him before he reached the exit of the underworld, or she would go back down.

He made it almost all the way there, but started doubting thinking that he was the butt of Hades, this joke. But when he turned around, he saw Eurydice just before she was dragged back into the other world. Orpheus broke the surface alone and screamed understanding that he had just bought his only chance to have his bride back.

Time-lapse Orpheus as many years older and living in solitude, he is visited by his mother, Kelly OB, who had a falling out with Morpheus after he would not assist Orpheus with his quest to bring back your IDC is not interested in talking with her, but she wants him. The picante are on their way and that he should leave as soon as possible. So she disappears and soon after the forest breaks out and cries, a crowd of naked women covered in wine and blood are running right towards him and ask that he take part in their rituals of sex, wine, and eating raw flesh.

He states that he cannot participate as his heart belongs to someone else. And they basically say, yeah, we weren't asking. And they literally rip him apart. And eventually decapitate him, sending his head, flying into a river. He, of course can't die. So he's just stuck, literally rolling on a river.

Mike: Yeah. It's very much the stories that Orpheus is known for. Everybody knows him from the story of him and URI dicey, but, surprise. There is actually a major part of Greek mythology where he gets ripped apart by boxes, insane followers 

and yeah.

You're I find you don't want to take part in the ritual. we're going to turn you into one of the ritual supplies and just eat. Yeah, 

Jessika: Yeah, pretty much. So Orpheus the head washes a shore and Morpheus comes to see him. He wants to say, goodbye has arranged for Orpheus to be taken care of, but says the he'll never see Orpheus again. His life is his own next is convergence parliament of Rooks.. We visit Daniel and Hippolyta again, she puts Daniel down to nap and he wanders into the dream realm where he goes to the house of secrets and is with Matthew Eve and Abel Eve tells the story of Adam's three wives and Abel after Kane interrupts of course tells a very optimistic and happy version of their story, where everybody got along after all.

And after all was said and done, Hippolyta has no idea that Daniel has gone anywhere while he was napping.

Mike: we keep getting hints dropped about Daniel and it's gonna play out in a very big way later on. 

Jessika: I'm excited.

So our last story distant mirrors, Ramadan is about the king of Baghdad, who has everything. Anyone could want ruling over a prosperous city. However, something still feels wrong to him. So he goes down into the secret depths of the palace where numerous wonders were kept. You procures a ball, which holds multitudes of basically like bad vibe entities.

He summons Morpheus stating that he would break the ball, therefore releasing all of the bad vibes if Morpheus didn't appear. And when he actually follows through and drops the ball, Morpheus catches, it takes it and asks, why have you summoned me in, what the fuck do you want?

The king wanted to trade control of his city in order to ensure that it was going to last forever. Morpheus agreed, but in true Morpheus fashion, he put the city in a jar and left the man to be the king of a city in shambles.

So Mike overall impressions of a story, favorite characters or.

Mike: Yeah. like I said, this one is a lot like dream country and there's one more volume later on where we get the one-shot stories to provide us with breathers, , , from the overall narrative. They were printed, as they were in, in various orders, but then DC collected them into the different volumes in ways.

That makes more sense. but it's interesting because in this case we got a collection of stories without another prolonged round of like soul crushing horror and dark fantasy. I think the anthology volumes actually do a lot to move Sandman from the realm of horror and more into the realm of fantasy, because a lot of the times the individual stories aren't as dark or, as, as brutal.

like a lot of times they're a little bit more philosophical or meditative, but I liked them a lot, but I mean, I only own, two issues of Sandman like individual. and one of them is issue number eight, which is the first appearance of death. And the other one is issue 31, which is the one that features three Septembers in a January.

The story about . I love that story about Norden. I think that one's great. We already talked about how he was a real person and, he is this really interesting character out of history who is both the epitome , of kind of the magic of a dream and also what you can achieve even when you're faced with a ton of tragedy, because he was actually almost, I think he was basically completely wiped out due to a bad rice shipment and he did die penniless.

And at the same time, San Francisco fucking loved him. Like they kept standing, box tickets for him at the symphony on opening night He was arrested once by an officer and the judge actually did immediately dismiss him when he was brought before him. And basically said like, , as an emperor, he is never declared war.

He's never tried to invade anyone. He hasn't done terrible things. Other emperors should be like him. And I loved, how desire tried to tempt him with the ghost of a, dead snake oil salesman and the other bit where it turns out he had, like a Chinese information network, , where it turns out that the Chinese populace of San Francisco, which was hugely prevalent at the time, because of the gold rush and. Other things. , I loved the idea that he actually did have , this amazing fantastical life that was already fantastical, but then there were even more elements of fantasy woven into it. and then the other one is, , the parliament of ropes. It's , the story of Cain and Abel and Eve, you know, the purlin or Rooks hits me in a personal way because the bit we're able tells the story about him and Kane and, it's what this person who, who just idolized his brother wanted from the relationship, even though they do have their own strange in certain ways loving relationship, but also Cain murders able on a regular basis throughout the series.

And it made me think about, how I stopped talking to my brother a number of years ago, but I still think about him a lot. And I wish that things were different between us, like. I often wonder what things would have been like if we had wound up being slightly different people and I construct those fantasies in my head still sometimes, but yeah. honestly I like this a lot better than I like that. I like the previous volume, because it gives me a lot more to think about, um, I don't know. How do you feel about it? 

Jessika: Yeah, I, you know, it's funny as I actually really liked the story of Joshua, the emperor of the United States, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I really like how they kept the narrative bag, leaving the reader wavering between believing that he really had been successful in his reign as the legitimate emperor of the U S or if he was just some sweet old man who was really well-liked well-respected and generally taken care of by this town of other really eccentric.

Mike: Yeah. And it turns out the truth is a little bit of both. 

Jessika: Yeah, Yeah, I guess so. I mean, he did get out of, out of a core thing, huh?

Mike: Well, and when he died, basically, he was going to be put in a Popper's grave. And I believe like the merchants association basically paid for a really Swank funeral and of people 

came to the viewing like, you know, but thousands of people turned out for. 

Jessika: what I'm going to research this 

so sweet. 

Mike: Hmm, 

Jessika: Yeah. I thought it was really wholesome that he was just so content to have the title of emperor. He didn't have some weird power trip about colonizing or being otherwise oppressive. I would say that that was genuinely refreshing to see him just so content to be valued and validated. Oh shit.

That's all I want,

Mike: that's all, any of us want. Also, I liked that he hung out with mark Twain and the story, and I don't know if he and mark Twain were friends in real life, but mark Twain was a reporter in San Francisco. after he got run out of the state of Nevada, 

Jessika: maybe we'll have to specifically look at up. Well, did you have a favorite art moment in this volume?

Mike: I had to, I really liked the art of the hunt, which is the story of the grandfather. Cause it felt really like, it felt really scratchy and you're kind of reminded me of those old European crosshatched wood prints. And then that actually makes sense because I realized it was inked by this guy named Vince Locke.

And he's this guy who he actually illustrated a bunch of tabletop role-playing games for white Wolf games in the 1990s. And then he also created the comic that the movie, a history of violence was based off of. If you remember that.

Jessika: I do.

Mike: but like, I always really liked his style. Like I thought it was really cool and really unique.

He's done a lot of other cool stuff as well. He had a comic series called dead world that was a zombie apocalypse kind of comic. If I remember right , well, before the walking dead ever came along like, you know, 30 years. , and then there's the whole issue of Ramadan, which is the story set in Baghdad. so Ramadan was illustrated by P Craig Russell and Russell was a, the first openly gay comic creator. and he's still working today in his art style. It's just, it's one of the most fucking beautiful things you'll ever see. And it's really adaptable into a bunch of different settings.

Like he did a really cool series for DC called Robin 3000, which is kind of like a weird blend of those old Tom swift scifi stories, but set in this weird, extreme far future, we're Batman and Robin are solo thing and it's got that whole retro futurism vibe to it. It's great. 

Jessika: Nice.

Mike: but it's funny because when I was reading the story, I realized that a year later he had done illustrations in the same style for a comic that we've talked about in the past called acts from dark horse comics, where he provides this fantasy scenario that kids are basically being brainwashed with a very fantasize version of like that. Uh, oh, like it's, you know, it's like that extreme Muslim terrorist fantasy of like, oh, well they're promised, you know, I haven't full of versions or whatever.

And he did a stylized version of that, which it sounds gross. And tactless it's actually, it works really well in the narrative because it does. But yeah, I, when I showed you those, I, I sent screenshots over. Cause I was like, oh, this is funny. I wonder if, if his issue of Ramadan, which came out a year earlier was the reason that this got published, 

Jessika: Yeah. And I actually had to look at, I was looking at what you sent me trying to figure out if it was also in what we were reading, because it did have a very, very similar vibe to everything that's going on with us 

this year. 

Mike: Well, Russell style is very unique and it's really identifiable. And he has worked on some of the coolest stuff. Like he illustrated what is widely considered to be the first interracial kiss in mainstream comics as well from the seventies? He's, he's really cool. And if you're looking for some cool stuff, Check him out.

He has worked with Neil Gaiman on several things as well, if I remember. Right. 

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: so anyway, that is the long-winded way of saying that I've loved a lot of the art in this volume. like how about you, like, what I'm curious about is because you liked the emperor Norton story, I'm wondering if he liked the same things that I did. 

Jessika: Well, what's funny is I actually liked the difference in how Abel story was drawn. Just Abel's story in particular, it was done in this cute little anime style of drawing that was completely unique 

so far to the series. 

Mike: was, Chibi style. 

Jessika: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I just thought it was so refreshing. It was just such a surprise to see that kind of illustration, when you're seeing all of this other kind of heavy fantasy different stuff. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: I thought that was really cute and it was such a small section, but I really admire the creativity of making the animation of the story matched the cheery note of how Abel was trying to spin the tale into something positive 

and maybe trying just a bit too hard.

Mike: yeah, it's, it's a kid friendly story for a child that he's talking to. 

Jessika: Um

Mike: Which like at that point in time, like has contrasted , very much with Eve story and, Kane story talking about , the parliament of Rooks or whatever. , which are 

Jessika: Hm, 

Mike: bit darker. The, 

Jessika: exactly. Well, when you say we wrap up this and mosey on to our final topic of the evening, 

Mike: yeah. 

Okay. Yeah,

I think this sounds fine. Okay. 

Jessika: well, let's move on to our brain Regals, which is the one thing comics or comics adjacent bed is just stuck within the recesses of the wrinkles of your brain. Mike, what is it?

Mike: So this week, or this past week, I was watching the latest episode of what F and my stepson suddenly got interested. 

 

And so we went back and we started to watch through all of the one-off episodes from the first one on. And that led to him getting very interested. I should preface this by saying he is scary smart, or an 11 year old.

And he loves watching videos about theoretical physics. And, mechanical engineering and all sorts of stuff like that. I don't know what he's going to do in life, but it's, I, I suspect he is going to do something that requires a lot more intellect than what I got. And so he got really interested in the multi-verse and then he had questions about the multi-verse and how that came about.

So I was telling him about Loki, and then , we've started to watch that which have led to conversations about, string theory and quantum physics and other things like that. And, the theory of time being cyclical and he suddenly has gotten interested in superheroes, which is not something that he's been interested in before.

And it's a lot of fun for me to sit and talk with him about it?

while also trying to sound smart to an 11 year old, which is a new experience. Um, but Yeah,

it, um, it's one of those things where I keep thinking about how, when I was growing up, people really were very dismissive of Comics and even until now, like I remember I would have dates with people where, when they heard that I read comic books, they would make very shitty comments about it.

But, yeah, it just, it's one of those things where these days Comics are not just for kids and They can lead you down a number of paths, you have a multi-verse of choices if, if you will, 

Mike Audio: So on a related note, the podcast, dear Watchers is a really wonderful show that focuses on different. What if Comics from across Marvel's history? And if the multi-verse gets your engine going, you should check that out. 

Jessika: Nice 

Mike: So

Jessika: Yeah,

Mike: this is something that I'm thinking about, um, and how, how silly comic books, uh, have helped me bond with my steps on a little bit more. 

Yeah. 

Jessika: sweet.

Mike: Yeah. It's all right. Um, 

what about you? what, what can't you let go of? 

Jessika: Well, we're really gonna, and this thing on a downer, because apparently we're running out of paper to make comic books.

I'm so depressed. 

Mike: Like, as in like, 

Jessika: Just the world. 

Mike: oh man. Well, 

Jessika: Yeah, I know. Yeah. , it's difficult to get paper right now. I think from what I've, read an article or two about it. all the paper companies are like sold out, like oversold through 20, 22 at this point.

Mike: so is this a supply issue? Is this like a logistics thing? Is this. 

Jessika: It's I think it's a little bit of a lot of things. Cause they're also having supply issues with not being able to get freight.

Mike: I mean, that's, that's partially due to COVID that's also the longstanding ripple effect from the Suez canal. like you and I have had trouble getting bags and boards for our comics. 

Jessika: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually that is another one of the things that they're having trouble getting is the boards. Obviously that was one of the things they'd mentioned. So yeah, it's just, it's rough right now. Everything is terrible. And I have a hard time reading comics on a screen. I really liked that.

It's an option. My eyes get really tired and quite frankly, I'm on a screen all day for my real big girl job. Like I don't, I don't need to be sitting, reading a screen for other pastimes. 

Mike: relatable. 

Jessika: Yeah. So that's that's me. Just that everything's awful.

Mike: Everything is terrible. And we'll see you in two weeks. 

Jessika: Yes, that being said. Thank you all for being here. We really appreciate you listening. We'll see you again in two weeks, Mike, we'll be hosting some mystery, something or other.

Mike: Yeah. Oh yeah. Actually the episode after this, I'm really excited about, I believe that is going to be our. I believe that's going to be our comic book couples counseling episode. 

Jessika: It is, I think you're right about that. I was trying to remember what order we were doing things in, but yeah, I think you're right 

about that. 

Mike: We're recording everything out of order, but yeah, it's no 

I'm 

Jessika: are. We are.

Mike: I'm really excited about that because, um, I'm just going to say, I'm gonna really excited about it. don't want to spoil it 

Jessika: Yeah, no, they're an amazing podcast. if you want to go listen to them, comic book couples counseling, it's there. They're great. I love them. 

Mike: Yeah, 

Jessika: So that's all I'm going to say.

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Well, in that case, we'll see in two weeks,

Mike: yeah. Take care of guys. 

Thanks for listening to Tencent takes accessibility is important to us. So text transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website. 

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessica Frazier and Mike Thompson written by Jessica Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from BMI.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by, look, mom draws on Instagram.

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to 10 cent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencent takes gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is 10 cent takes. Jessica is Jessica with a and Jessica has a K in it. and Mike is van Sao, V a N S a U. 

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you listen

Mike: Stay safe. 

Jessika: and support your local comic shop.