Issue 17: The Sandman Book Club (part 2)

It's time to return to The Dreaming! This week, we're discussing the third and fourth volumes of Neil Gaiman's celebrated series. Come for the one-off stories of Dream Country, and give the devil his due when we cheer Lucifer's epic trolling of Dream in Season of the Mists. 

Episode 17 Transcript

Jessika: [00:00:00] I just, I like have had five sets of teeth in my life. They just keep growing bigger and bigger each set I got, 

 Hello, and welcome to Ten Cent Takes, the podcasts where we morph from delight to delirium one issue at a time. My name is Jessica Frazier and I'm joined by my cohost, the blasphemous baker, Mike Thompson. 

Mike: I am full of carbs and caffeine. How are you doing?

Jessika: Oh, I am somewhat of both as well. Could use a little more sleep, but I have a day off tomorrow, so I will be doing that, 

Mike: I'm jealous. 

Jessika: Dude. I work nine hours a day. Don't be too jealous. It's those nine hours that get me that day off. 

Mike: Oh man. I've been pulling [00:01:00] like 10 to 12 hour days for a couple of months and I'm just, 

Jessika: Oh shit. Nevermind. Goodness. Well, the purpose of this podcast is to study comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to look at their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they're woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. If you'd like to support us, be sure to download rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you live. 

Mike: Yeah, that really helps with discoverability. We know that we are not a large podcast, but the support that we've gotten from everybody has meant a lot to us. And we're hoping that we can continue to reach more people. If you like, what you're hearing, do us a favor and invite your friends to like our pages, every little bit helps. 

Jessika: Yeah, well, today we're continuing on. with the second episode of our book.

As we discuss volumes three and four of the Sandman series. But before we jump into [00:02:00] that, Mike, what is one cool thing that you've read or watched lately? 

Mike: Something actually that you mentioned on the last book club episode that we did was that there is a Sandman Audible book right now. As much as I don't like giving Amazon my money, if I don't have to, I've had an Audible membership for like a decade. And that means I have access to their Audible originals, which is what this audio book is.

And then one of my friends, hi, Darren, also recommended that I listen to the audio book after I told them that we were doing a Sandman book. So I finally downloaded the audio book and started listening while I walked the dogs. And it's legit incredible, like all-star cast. It feels like an audio play complete with like all these incredible production values.

Neil Gaiman is serving as the narrator and then they have all of these incredible actors voicing characters and it actually, you know, Neil [00:03:00] Gaiman rewrote it. And so it feels like what he wanted the Sandman, the first volume Preludes and Nocturnes to be, with the hindsight of 30 plus years.

Jessika: Nice. 

Mike: Yeah, it's great. 

Jessika: And he's such a good orator. 

Mike: he is he's done a couple of his other audio books that I've listened to over the years. He did The Graveyard Book, which was The only way I can describe it as a Victorian Gothic version of the Jungle Book. And then he also did Coraline. I think he did Coraline.

I'm pretty sure he did, but every time that I've listened to him, narrate stuff, it's always been just fantastic, 

But, yeah.

Jessika: Great. 

Mike: How about you?

Jessika: Well, I grabbed another $1 image teaser comic. , this time it was Kill or Be Killed by Ed Brubaker. Sean Phillips and Elizabeth Breittwiser. It was okay. 

It didn't grow. It followed the first person account of how a man was driven to be an assassin. He basically attempted to die by suicide by jumping off a roof, ended up not dying, but [00:04:00] being visited by what appears to be a demon who tells him , that he now owes him for the life.

He tried to waste or something, a life for a life, kind of a such and the rubric for killing being , someone basically like bad and it's not very well defined. So he goes from this guy who can't fathom killing someone to being ready to kill. So he doesn't die. The whole reason he wanted to die was over a woman that chose his roommate over him, by the way, like his best friend.

And it was this whole pining love thing. It was just a little just had, really bad incel vibes. You know what I mean? 

Mike: Yeah,

Jessika: I don't know. It just felt very strange. Like his whole motive was very, contrived it felt, 

Mike: Yeah. Brubaker does a lot of good stuff, but he writes a lot of, kind of the modern equivalent of pulp noire. 

Jessika: Mm. 

Mike: Everything that you've described sounds very much like a Brewbaker story. You got to find the right thing. He writes some really good stuff. Like he's the guy who actually created the winter soldier for the Captain America Comics.

Jessika: [00:05:00] Okay. 

Mike: Yeah. He did a couple of other kind of like noire-ish stories for image that they were hit or miss for me, but when he's good, he's really good. And then other times it's just, it's not my vibe.

Jessika: Okay. That's fair. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So, honestly though, again, it was one of those $1 Image teaser situations. 

Mike: I love how they do that. 

Jessika: I didn't feel like I really lost anything. 

Mike: No, I think that's a really great strategy of theirs where it's just kind of the entry-level pilot.

Jessika: Yeah, well, let's mosey on to our main topic. 

Mike: Yes.

Jessika: So last episode, just to recap, we covered an overview of the history and places you can read, watch and listen to the Sandman series. And if you haven't already listened to episode 15, we highly recommend you check out that episode for that. And our discussion on the first two volumes of the Sandman series, because from here, we are going to be discussing [00:06:00] volumes three and four.

I don't really have many tidbits per se for us this episode. Really? We're just going to look at the plot and then talk about what we thought. 

Mike: I actually have a couple of tidbits. Believe it or not, not many, but a couple.

Jessika: Mike has tidbits everyone. I love it. I didn't even know. Well, awesome. 

Mike: All right. So should we kick things off? 

Jessika: Let's do it. Volume three is titled Dream Country and it was published in 1990 and only included issues 17 through 20. And what made up a four-story anthology. It was, of course, written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones III, Charles Vess, and Colleen Duran. We start with the story of Calliope, the youngest Greek muse, who has been imprisoned by Erasmus Fry to be his own personal muse. Super gross. [00:07:00] She'd been captive for closest 60 years. So Erasmus gives Calliope to Richard Maddick, who is a writer who has one successful novel but now has hit a patch of writer's block.

And unfortunately for Calliope, he's a greedy motherfucker who only cares about his own success. So he takes Calliope who has been left without clothes in a room alone. And of course, immediately rapes her. This one was really hard for me. You can already tell, as I'm trying to get through this description. 

Mike: Yeah, it's an uncomfortable issue to read now. Even now it's, mean, it was really uncomfortable when I first read it when I was, I don't know, 18 or so. And it's just gotten increasingly gross as time goes on, especially now, post me too in the entertainment industry.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definite correlations there. 

Mike: Oh yeah. Oddly prescient.

Jessika: Yes. So Richard of course gets gains from this whole [00:08:00] situation and enjoys a few years of very good success. He writes more hit novels, some award-winning poetry, and even gets into Hollywood with writing and directing. So here we are again with the correlation situation and of course winning awards in that area. And this is all happening while Morpheus is still in prison, by the way, until he isn't any longer. And one thing we need to know about Calliope is that she and Morpheus have history. In fact, they have a child together. So Calliope calls out to him in desperation. After being told by her visiting muse sisters, that they were unable to help her and help Morpheus did. The author wanted ideas, then he was inundated with them. So many that they were causing him to have an actual breakdown seemingly with psychological effects. In the end, Richard sends someone to release her where he only finds Erasmus Fry's book in the room where she should have been. 

Mike: And doesn't it [00:09:00] originally start out with Morpheus trying to free Calliope, but Richard doesn't want to, because he needs the ideas she gives him when he rapes her?

Jessika: Yeah

Mike: Yeah. And that's when Morpheus sits there and basically punishes him with an overflowing chalice of ideas.

Jessika: Yeah. It's, definitely a fitting punishment. In my opinion 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: story, number two was super fun. I think you and I can probably agree. And this story was about a cat speaking to a crowd of cats in a graveyard. And this cat told the story of having kittens and having them taken away by the people that owned her. And of course, the guy was super level-headed about the whole thing and took the kittens to a shelter and they were adopted by loving families and, oh wait, never mind.

He put them all in a bag, tied the bag to a large rock, and threw it in a body of water. I just can't with people. Like, honestly, I can't, 

Mike: It's a safe assumption that people are going to be terrible throughout this series.

Jessika: I mean, it's true, [00:10:00] but I would love to have them all adopted. So the cat naturally is super upset but also looking for some sort of vengeance or something. And that night she has a dream where she goes on a long and difficult dream quest to see what is ultimately Meowpheus the cat. 

Mike: Meowpheus I like that. 

Jessika: So basically a Meowpheus tells her that cats used to rule. They were larger and humans were basically the pets. Instead, cats choosing to hunt humans for food and sport and keeping them to feed and groom them. One day, humans banded together and with participation from only 1000 humans, they were able to dream the same dream together and basically manifest humans being the alpha in the world, instead of the cats. And this went back into time where the power of the collective dream actually rewrote history in favor of humans, making the cat subservient. Instead. [00:11:00] The cat in the graveyard was basically preaching a gospel, asking all the cats in the graveyard to dream the same dream. That she was trying to get 1000 cats to help her so that, they could all pull a Cher and turn back time to be in power once again. I enjoyed the partying quippy remark from one of the listener cats, which was effectively good luck getting multiple cats to do anything at the same time.

Mike: Uh, yeah. Accurate.

Jessika: And while it was really sad and cruel I like the idea that cats have an attitude for a reason. 

Mike: Yeah, I thought it was cute. It was just, it was a very, I mean, we'll get into this later on, but it was, I thought it was very.

Jessika: Yeah. The third step. Told us, the creation of Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream wherein Morpheus has actually requisitioned the play in specific terms and asks Billy Shakes and his troop to perform in the middle of an empty field. Well, kind of. That field is not empty for a long as [00:12:00] Titania, Oberon, Puck, and all the other characters from the fairy realm have arrived through the portal, which Morpheus opens for them. It's mentioned during the dialogue between Titania and Morpheus, that this is probably the last time the mortal realm would allow them to enter, that they were feeling the hostility from Gaia upon their entry. During the play puck steps in for the actor playing himself and kills of course, and Titania is very strangely fascinated with Billy's 11 year old son Hamnett and is like trying to entice him. And then in the end, everybody, but Puck leaves the realm. And it's mentioned at the end of the issue that Hamnet died later that same year. So like, did Titania finally get Hamlet to go with her? 

Mike: You know, it's left a little bit open, but it's playing into that whole idea of the changeling child and, you know, the mortals who go over into the very realm, as children, which I really liked that I thought it was a nice ending that was very bittersweet.

Jessika: Yeah. I thought so too. And the fourth and final story [00:13:00] of this volume is called Facade and it is about a woman named Rainey who we learn has been given a gift by the sun, God Ra, which makes her a metamorph. Meaning that she can change her physical appearance, physically change faces, skin, everything. But this also means that she no longer has a normal human appearance. Her skin is scaly and multicolored. Her hair has turned of violent shade of green and her face is withered and her nose is almost completely gone. We find Rainie living a very solitary life, getting a monthly disability check and only interacting with the worker assigned to her, but disability case she's depressed and has suicidal ideations. Probably the scariest part of the story is when an old friend who works for the same company that Rainey was working for, when Ra messed her up, who invites her to lunch, Rainie sucks it up, puts on a face literally and meets [00:14:00] at the restaurant. Where her entire face falls off into a plate of spaghetti. I don't, I don't know about you like that. I thought it was super terrifying.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, it goes back to that very human emotion of seeing someone that you haven't seen forever. And you're trying to do as much as you can to make sure that they don't see that you've changed too much. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: You and I are at that age now where it's like, people from high school want to get in touch and we're all older.

You know, some of us are. And so you see these people and you still want to seem like the person that they knew, because you don't want to, you don't want them to comment on how you've changed. You don't want to acknowledge it. And I read it as she'd been working for like the CIA or an intelligence agency because they call it “The Company.”

They don't ever refer to it as anything else.

Jessika: I think it was something of that nature kind of checking out sites, et cetera. 

Mike: Yeah.[00:15:00] But yeah, and then the whole thing is that because she can change her body into elements. She's, she's a sidekick from the old Moetamorpho series in the sixties. I didn't really know much about her, but I did a little digging cause I couldn't remember a lot. And so Metamorpho is a DC hero who is part of the justice league and his whole thing is that he can't.

Basically change his body into any element that he wants. And so that was the whole thing where she's talking about, oh, like it's not hard for me to change the color of my hair. I I just turned it into copper and, and then she basically grows a kind of silica over her face, but she was saying that after roughly a day it gets stiff and, it falls off.

And unfortunately, that's what happened with her, at her lunch with her friend.

Jessika: Yeah.

it was definitely a bummer.

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: So of course, Rainey goes home crying where she has to break into her own house by melting the handle because she forgot her purse with her keys and breaks down crying. Death appears having been visiting one of Rainey's neighbors who fell off a stepladder and talks with Rainie, advising that she should [00:16:00] ask rah nicely to take away her gift, or at least giving us an option. She looks into the setting sun and becomes what I'm assuming is a pile of Ash. It looks like death didn't actually take her. So I'm not sure if Rainie is supposed to be just with the world. You know, just one with the world as it kind of seemed like she fear being 

Mike: You know, I read it as like she was, she had her immortality taken away from her because she seemed so happy when she turned into, I don't know if it was ash or glass or something. It was kind of hard to tell what the art, and then it cracked and fell apart. And then Death answers the phone and says something along the lines of like, no, she, she can't come she's gone away or something to that effect.

And, death isn't this cruel being or anything like that. I think death helped her move on. I'd like to think that she did.

Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. it was Fe usually. she like wanders away with the person [00:17:00] she's like low key reaping.

Mike: Usually. Yeah. I don't know. I think maybe it was just a little bit, it, it was for the sake of narrative in this case, 

Jessika: That’s fair. That's fair. 

Mike: But yeah. Urania was this, so her full name is Urania She was a side character for a few issues in Metamorpho’s sixties series. And then she wound up basically giving herself the same powers that he had, and it was delivered via device called the Orb of RA.

So it's really interesting because, Metamorpho is always a science character, because it's all about the elements of what he can turn himself into. But at the same time, there is in his background. is this like, you know, mystical quality to it. And so I liked that they kind of tapped into that mythology a little bit, and really they did a nice job with a character that I think most people had forgotten existed.

Jessika: So, Mike, did You have a favorite [00:18:00] character part of the story? What did you dig from this? 

Mike: This volume in particular, I really like, because it feels. Like a breather from the main narrative. And honestly, I think that's something that we needed because I mentioned last time, how I always am a little bit surprised at how dark the early stories are. They're very much horror stories with a little bit of fantasy kind of softening the blows a little bit, but there's a couple of moments in those first couple of volumes where I feel like I need to pack a flashlight.

it's dark. but yeah, this collection is just, a much-needed change of pace just for a little bit. My least favorite story is the one with the cats. And it's not because I think it's bad. I just don't connect with it that much. Part of it is because we've got a rescue cat, we treat her better than the kids. Let's be honest. I can't fathom throwing kittens into a pond. It was just, it feels a little bit too mustache-twirly. You know, especially in this day and age where like, if people find out [00:19:00] about that you get tracked down on social media and just annihilate it. But it was cute.

The whole bit where at the end, it's like, oh, it must be, it's dreaming, you know, it's chasing something and, you're like, oh, okay. Yeah. So it's, it's dreaming of hunting humans. Cool.

Jessika: [laughs], 

Mike: And it's funny, cause I was actually in a production of Midsummer Night's Dream when I first read this collection. So I loved everything about that specific issue. I loved how it tapped into fairy lore it showed this kind of weird, strange relationship with Titania and Oberon.

And how absolutely sinister pock seemed not to mention how there's that dangling plot thread, where he basically gets loosed on earth afterwards 

Jessika: mm. 

Mike: I don't know. It's just, it's very different than any other portrayal I'd seen up until then. And, , it's interesting because they brought those characters specifically back in a number of different ways across the vertigo comics later on, like to Tanya actually had her origin explained in the Books of Faerie, which was in itself a series that [00:20:00] spun off of another comic that Neil Gaiman wrote called the Books of Magick, where eventually it's revealed that the main character from the Books of Magick, Tim Hunter, who was like the next great magician of the age, he's like our version of Merlin.

It is very. They always leave it a little bit up in the air, but Titania’'s his mother, because she was a human who was brought into the world of Fairie. And then eventually he got married to Oberon and then she had an affair with a human that was in service to Oberon. 

Jessika: Okay. 

Mike: She becomes a major part of the lore in her own right. Which I thought was really cool. And Puck shows up again later in the series. I, like I still squirm when I read that story of Calliope, especially where we are like sitting on the other side of me too, and the ongoing flood of stories about successful men in the arts, just being abusive, assholes to those who aren't as powerful as they are.

Like when we're recording this, there's a whole flood of stories coming out of Activision [00:21:00] blizzard, if you're not in video games, they make Warcraft and a bunch of other stuff. it turns out that that was a really toxic place for women. And I spent almost a decade working in video games with various companies and yeah, it's not surprising, but it's just, these stories need to be told that at the same time, they're always super uncomfortable to read.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Um, yeah. And then, the facade story, I really liked, I really appreciate how gaming does this amazing job spinning out a story that's focused on loneliness and how harmful it is. and then I thought it was kind of neat that it arguably has a happy ending, though the main character dies.

Jessika: Yeah. I can see that. 

Mike: Same question back at you. What about you?

Jessika: So, you know, I really enjoyed the cat story. 

Mike: You don't say.

Jessika: I did. I mean, I get it though. Like cats are, are super intense and honestly they make [00:22:00] me a little nervous. I heard some horror stories about cats, just going bananas on people and them just like getting super fucked up, like missing part of an ear and shit.

Like I've heard some stories. That's just like a regular house cat. Oh, I don't think so 

Mike: Well, and then you've met our cat.

Jessika: Yeah. Well, yeah. You know that's but I don't, I didn't fear your cat right away. There are some cats I go into someone's house and I'm just like, oh, I got to watch my back. 

Mike: We have a dog and a cat's body.

Jessika: Yeah. Your cat’s sweet. 

Mike: No, she... she's fat and lazy and she knows who feeds her. So she's like, I'm good. I don't need to get out. I don't need to be now.

Jessika: I'm strictly a dog household, so I just don't really truly get them to be honest with you. And I honestly, I'm kind of glad I have allergies as an excuse, not to have to get one. So did you have a favorite art moment in this volume? Like was there a panel or cover that really stood [00:23:00] out to you or hit you in some kinda way? 

Mike: Yeah. That final sequence in the Midsummer issue, so that one was illustrated by Charles Vess and he's this really he's this artist that has this really beautiful illustration style that feels very old school storybook. Sarah loves this British artist named Arthur Rakim and Vess always kind of reminds me of his work, but the closing monologue by Puck is I gotta be at that closing monologue is kind of terrifying, especially with the way that it's illustrated.

I also liked how this felt almost like, well, I mean, it was in certain ways, it was a sequel to men of good fortune, that issue that we talked about last time with Hob Gadling and the mortal that keeps on meeting up with Morpheus. 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah, you remember during, the last book club episode, how I mentioned that Sandman won the World Fantasy Award. Yeah. So it was for this issue specifically, you know, and then they got all grumpy about it and they [00:24:00] changed it so that you could no longer win a world fantasy award with a comic book. So. The only comic book to ever win a world fantasy award,

Jessika: extra salty, 

Mike: extra salty.

Jessika: Hate to see it. 

Mike: what about you? Like, I'm actually curious. What did you think about Vess’s illustration style? Because we haven't seen, I don't think we've really seen much of his artwork in the series up until now.

Jessika: We haven't, and that's actually this, this was my favorite art volume as well, or art issue as well. I mean, it just, it was beautiful. It used color in a really interesting way that went from playful to dark and serious. I mean, it just with the same type of illustration and the color would just change the whole. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: Which was super cool just by adding shadows, moving the colors. Plus you got to love a good donkey head and you know, okay. I was musing and you have to go with me on this journey. They had to have used a taxidermied donkey's head. Right. 

Mike: [00:25:00] No, they, I 

Jessika: Please. Come on, come on, go with me on this journey. 

Mike: Ugh no. Hmm. 

Jessika: Ah, 

Mike: Like, like that's a whole element in that American Horror Story series, like where  they make a mandatory by putting a bull's head on a dude. Like, no, no,

Jessika: I am going horror with this one.

Mike: Well, have fun going down that road. I'm not there with you.

Jessika: Okay. Well, that's good. I suppose we are on volume four 

Mike: I suppose 

Jessika: Volume Four!. Alright. 

Mike: What accent is that?

Jessika: I don’t know, I do a lot, don't I?

Mike: A little bit? 

Jessika: I think it's my 1920s. 

Mike: Okay. 

Jessika: I don't know. It's like my newscaster, I used to have an old-timey newscaster kind of an accent that I did. 

And I think I'm combining, I'm combining my Virginia [00:26:00] Montgomery Prescott, the third Esquire. 

Mike: It's, that so proper American that it's almost English kinda like that very Northeastern accent. 

Yeah. 

Jessika: Yes. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. All right. 

Jessika: All right. Volume four is titled season of the mists and came out between 1990 and 1991 and included issues 21 through 28. Story as always was written by Neil Gaiman and illustration was done by Kelly Jones, Malcolm Jones, the third Mike Drigenberg, Matt Wagner, Dick Giordano, George Pratt, and P Craig Russell. Volume four begins with our introduction to destiny. Ooh. While wandering his realm is visited by the fates, the three sisters that we have seen previously, the sisters inform him that he needs to call a [00:27:00] reunion of all his siblings of the eternal realm. So off, he goes to the family gallery where he goes up to each portrait of his sibling and they appear out of the portrait.

When summoned the siblings are a mix of characters we have seen. And one that is new to this issue. Death who is told to change her outfit, even though no one else was, I thought that was kind of rude. 

Mike: Yeah, Destiny's a stickler for formality.

Jessika: Yeah. Well, the other one's got to wear nimble to CWA. They got to wear whatever 

Mike: Hmm.

Jessika: I, whatever. I don't know. It makes me angry. So don't tell women they have to change. They are not a distraction. Death has followed by Dream and then the twins, Desire and Despair, and lastly Delirium who we come to find out, used to be Delight. So during their reunion, desire calls out Dream’s treatment of lovers who have spurned [00:28:00] him, leading him to ask for validation of his actions from Death. And Death instead agrees with. Prompting dream to plan, to travel to hell in order to remove queen nada from her torturous captivity, who was, that was the subject of their whole conversation. 

Mike: Yeah. And we actually saw that whole story in the previous volume to 

Jessika: Yes, 

Mike: saw what happened to.

Jessika: exactly. so destiny closes out the reunion basically stating that the actions that needed to be put into motion had been accomplished by dream deciding to go back to.

hell. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: The next issue gives us a taste of what hell looks and feels like. So back in the dream realm, Dream is saying his goodbyes and makes a big announcement to those living in his realm. He tells them about Nada, how he had been unjust and how he had to rectify his actions and that he may not return as he is not on good terms with Lucifer.

So [00:29:00] he sends Cain to Hell as a messenger to let loose for know that dream will be visiting whether he approves or not basically. So that was fun. 

Mike: Well, he knows that he can't kill Cain because Cain is protected by the mark of Cain from, the Cain and Abel story. He knows about that. 

Jessika: oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

Mike: That's why dream sent Cain it's because he knows that Cain can't be killed.

Jessika: Exactly. Exactly. Lucifer clearly is still really salty about being embarrassed. The last time dream was there and he makes an announcement to his, his demonic minions reminding them that he is the oldest and strongest bad-ass lets them know that dream will be returning and implies very strongly. That the day that Dream returns will be very memorable. Kane delivers the response to Dream. And on the last stop of his farewell tour, Dream also visits Hippolyta whose husband [00:30:00] was the pho dream king superhero thingy from one of the other stories while he was enslaved or, you know, captive. 

Mike: Yeah. she and Hector the previous Doctor Fate were being used by Brute and Glob to basically create kind of like an island for them to operate outside of the dreaming the dreams of a kid who was being abused. 

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: And then, Dream is on her shit list because he sent her ghost of a husband on to wherever he got sent onto, but she was pregnant at the time.

And so there's a connection between Dream and the baby because she carried the baby to term mostly in dreams,

Jessika: Well, the baby was in gestation for like that, like 30, 30, 40 years or something more than that. I mean, it was like 60 years? I don't  remember how many it was like however long or 

Mike: I, 

Jessika: or was it just the kid timeframe?

Mike: I think it was just the kid timeframe. So I think it was only for a couple of years, but still it was in gestation injuries for a long time compared to.

Jessika: Oh, I can't even imagine [00:31:00] being pregnant once, let alone for like two years straight. Holy crap. And she was like really pregnant. That's not comfortable. 

So Morpheus advises Hippolyta to take good care of the kid that had been gestating in the dream realm, because he will take it someday. So. Cool. Thanks, Dream. That's awesome. 

Mike: Really endearing us to you, buddy.

Jessika: Yeah.

serious. Oh, he also gives her the name Daniels because she had kind of been struggling with a name for him. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: So that's the kid's name now? I guess. So Dream makes his way to hell anticipating a fight with Lucifer, but what He finds is an eerily empty hell with Lucifer in the process of locking all the gates. And when asked about this loose advises that he's, he's done, he's quitting and he is no longer the ruler of hell. He's freed everyone and everything that was locked up. And he's not really sure what happened to them or where they all went, whether it was to earth or other realms or what, but he just [00:32:00] knows they're no longer in hell

Mike: Yeah. He likes straight up. Does not care. 

Jessika: Oh, zero fucks. None. 

Mike: They're his favorite kind of problem. Not his.

Jessika: Then he goes, Yeah. think I'm bluffing. Hey, here's a knife. Why don't you cut off my wings? Just see, just, just go ahead and see. And, and Dream does. And then as a parting gift, he hands the key to hell Dream stating basically Like Hey, this is your problem now.

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: that's some high-level trolling. 

Mike: Dream was prepared for just about every outcome except that one. It is.

Jessika: Exactly. We are then introduced to Oden who travels to the cavern where Loki is being held captive and has been enduring an eternity of torture until Ragnarok, the end times in which the Asgardian realms would be destroyed. Odin [00:33:00] frees low-key from his situation and asks him to help him as he wants to take over the Hell situation since Lucifer abdicated and Loki agrees to help, then we cut back to dream because he's not really sure what to do.

So he calls on his sister death for advice. And she has like, no time. First of all, she has no time for him in that issue. She's like, what do you need? I'm super busy. She pretty much says, this is your problem. Also, he knows things are going to go down and he hides, frustrated his castle basically. And then he just starts getting visited by all these different parties, all wanting the keys to hell.

So you have the Asgardians, Azazzle and a demon Envoy who’re like “That's my house. I just want to live in my house again.”

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Yeah. Anubis and Bastet who are like, yo, [00:34:00] you know, who does a good job with death with underworlds let me show you. 

Mike: it's a really eclectic mix of mythological figures because you also have. The Lords of chaos and order send their envoys, Shivering Jemmy from the Lords of chaos who... I really like her. I think she's a great, 

Jessika: did too. 

Mike: and then the Lords of order send their representative and it's a cardboard box that basically spits out ticker tape 

and 

Jessika: Which 

Mike: And, then you get the elves, a ferry at one point. And they have, a really unique proposition, which is that the lands of Faerie had a tie to hell where every seven years they had to send over a certain number of , their best and brightest as a sacrifice. And they wanted, basically begging dream, not to let hell reopen.

Jessika: And we did. We establish that That was still a thing when all the other shit went down. 

Mike: That specific deal?

Jessika: yeah. 

Mike: Oh yeah. It's still a deal. And actually, that was a whole thing in the books of [00:35:00] magic. They have a whole thing with ferry and hell going into conflict with each other, because I think it has been almost 20 years since I read this last. But if I remember right, it was, I think Faerie refused to pay the tithe anymore anymore.

And as a result, they basically straight up, went to war with hell. and it was, oh man, it was cool. I remember liking that storyline. I don't remember it enough to really talk about it a lot though, because it's 

been so long. 

But it's, it's good. It's in one of the collected volumes of the Books of Magick that they did, they only collected the first 50 issues, 50 through 75 aren't collected anywhere.

Jessika: Hmm. 

Hmm. So we also had Suzan O No Mikto 

Mike: Yes. 

Jessika: Oh, and a couple of angels who were there just to be voyeurs to the situation 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: and Dream finally lets them into the castle. [00:36:00] After he stopped sulking and he advises that he'll be hosting a banquet and having accommodation set up and they could discuss the key to the realm the next day, basically. And we start seeing the consequences of hell's release through a boys boarding school where one solitary boy is staying over during the holidays while his father, as a prisoner of war in Kuwait 

and all hell returns.

When boys and staff who used to attend the school, start to show back up 

Mike: yeah.

Jessika: Along with the headmasters previously deceased mother. 

Mike: Yes. It's... that issue. It's really interesting because I really didn't like it originally. And I've come to appreciate it more because it feels like a very Gothic or story kind of like the Hunting of Hill House from Netflix. 

Jessika: I can see that. Yeah. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika:  It was wild. 

Like all of them had reasons that they were in hell. 

Mike: Yeah. That [00:37:00] issue is really interesting and it's really weird because it's drawn by Matt Wagner, who has a very interesting style. All of his own Wagner himself is famous for creating a couple of different characters on his own.

Like he created a character called the Grendel, who is this assassin and wound up becoming a cult property, had a long run with Dark Horse, if I remember right. But this story in season at the mist is really creepy because the whole thing is that the dead are coming back to earth and all sorts of unexpected ways.

And then there were a bunch of boys who were really awful, Who come back and they start tormenting Charles, because he's the only living soul there. And he's also, you know, he's a sweet, sensitive little kid, like who is just an easy target for people like that. And the thing is, is like, that was me when I was at that age was I was that sensitive kid who was just an easy target for bullies.

And so it was really hard to read it when I was younger. And, I've got a little different perspective now, [00:38:00] but it's, still tough. Anyway, go on.

Jessika: Oh, that's okay. So yeah, Charles, unfortunately, he got tortured by that trio of boys. And apparently those boys had murdered another school boy as an offering to Lucifer. So joke’s on them, the offering didn't save them from the torture of damnation, 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: so Charles ends up being physically tortured and then starves to death.

And his only companion was that other boy who had been killed on the premises that boy, that, those, 

that trio allegedly sacrificed. Edwin. Yeah. So death rolls up to pick them up and Charles says “Yeah, no thanks. I’m gonna hang out with, uh, Edwin and deaths. Like you don't, I don't, I don't have time for this. Like literally every one is coming back.

Like I literally don't have time. I will come back for you. 

Mike: I loved that she was in early nineties, jogging paraphernalia, like 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: I thought it was fantastic.

Jessika: was ready for it. 

Mike: [00:39:00] I may be misremembering this, but I thought it was really funny how it was like, I think it was like pink and purple too. Like it was very colored.

Jessika: I think it did have some color to it. 

Yeah.

Oh, funny. So back in the dream realm, two more guests from the theory realm, those two that we had talked about, they arrive and the banquet in. And each of the guests eats and drinks, their desire delicacies, cause , poof we're in dreamland and shenanigans ensued due to the differences of the attendees. And one by one, they basically corner Morpheus requesting a private conversation and he provides each of them with a signal stadium that he'll meet with them after the banquet and entertainment have concluded Cain and Abel show up as the entertainment we're able dies,by being cut in half and then being made into sausage in a magic act 

Mike: which. That is a, that is a recurring theme with Cain and Abel in, in the Sandman comics. 

Jessika: Yeah, I've noticed. 

Mike: But, [00:40:00] Cain was the host of another horror series called the house of misery. And he always had this kind of macabre sort of sense of humor. I know Abel eventually showed up in the house mystery series.

I don't know if Cain murdered him every time. I wouldn't be surprised.

Jessika: Fair enough. So this is this tracks apparently, each of the guests go off to their respective quarters to wait to be summoned. And they each go to Morpheus, either offering something they think he would want or threatening him in order to turn over control the key to hell. And he advises each one of them that he will announce his decision in the morning. And once in the privacy of his own quarters, he ruminates on the pressure of the weight of his responsibility that was dropped on him. 

Mike: Yeah. What was your favorite bargaining tactic? I've got mine. I'm curious about yours.

Jessika: I didn't like the whole trading people thing. I don't know. Cause they were all so good in different ways. Like order and chaos were both really interesting to me. I think chaos just being like, [00:41:00] we will find you 

Mike: Chaos was my favorite

Jessika: 

I was going to say like, but Shivering Jemmy was just so funny to begin with. 

Mike: Well, 

Jessika: was just such an interesting. 

Mike: you know, they play, they play with this a lot because, Dr. Fait is one of the Lords of order, DC comic books. And so there's always been this presentation that, order is, the right way to go. And what I kind of enjoyed is that this very much embodies, no order is a dull little box in chaos is chaos.

It's not what you expect. And so they send this, hobo girl with a red balloon and 

Jessika: like, uh, like a clown face. 

Mike: yeah, and she's like, speeding. Almost like toddler English, like it's much younger phrasing than you would expect from a kid who looks like they're 10 or 11.

And then, turns into this monstrous thing, delivering ungodly threats to the Lord of dreams. And then, you know, it turns back into the little kid again, after when it was like,[00:42:00] byeeeee. Yeah, I can get behind this.

Jessika: So good. She just ate ice cream for dinner too, which I loved. 

Mike: Oh yeah. It was so good. I, again, I think she shows up in the books of magic later on, but I can't remember for that one.

Jessika: That's amazing. So I really did like her as a character. 

Mike: it was good.

Jessika: So the next morning. As Morpheus, still struggles to decide to whom he will grant the key. He is visited by the voyeur angels who tell him they have a message for him from the creator who dictates that the two angels will now run hell and guess what guys, you're not allowed back to the silver city Remiel. Oh, Remiel was not happy about this situation. He did not take this well. 

Mike: No, he did not it was very much implied that he was about to rebel, like Lucifer.

Jessika: Yup. He's like fuck the shit. [00:43:00] Why do I have to go down there? And he had that. He was like, this is your fault. I was like, whoa, damn, you need to go calm down. Your silent homie is not the enemy. there was some salt. This issue. 

So Morpheus hands over the key after Remiel takes a chill pill and Morpheus still has the task of telling the other as the outcome of his decision and lets them know the decision was really made for him that if the creator of hell wanted angels to run it, who was he to decide differently from what the creator of that thing wanted to do with it. And most of his guests took this. Okay. I liked orders response of this? This is logical. 

Mike: Yeah. And then chaos is like, man, it's fine. We just didn't want order to get it. It's fine. Whatever.

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: And then 

Jessika: was even better. 

Mike: doesn't she give Morpheus her balloon afterwards? 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah, I thought that was great

Jessika: She's like, oh, well, 

I didn't really want this anyway. [00:44:00] but Azazel was especially upset about this whole situation 

Mike: Embodiment of bitter party of one.

Jessika: Yes. yes. Table for one. Absolutely. And he pretty much said that he was going to consume the souls of Nada as well as his companions from hell, because he had actually kidnapped her. 

Mike: Yeah, and we should note that one of his companions from hell was actually, the demon who had Morpheus’s helm before. it was a honied offer of him sitting there and saying, well, I will give you the woman that you're searching for, but then I'll also let you enact punishment of this guy who challenged you and to make you look bad in front of all of hell.

Jessika: That makes sense. I was kind of wondering why he was like, why would he care about this one, dude? But that makes way more sense. I forgot about that, dude. 

Mike: Yep. 

Jessika: There's a lot. There's a lot to remember in this. 

Mike: You know, I can't remember everything and I've read this series multiple times. It's a dense story. And I always feel like. I probably caught things before, but, I always [00:45:00] find things that I feel like I'm discovering for the first time with each reread.

Jessika: Oh, that's so cool. I'm so glad I picked up the trade paperbacks. 

Mike: Yeah. I'm glad that you, I'm glad you're spearheading this. This is a really fun series to talk about.

Jessika: Thank you. So Azazel tells Morpheus, basically, I'm going to consume the souls of Nada and my other companion, unless Morpheus could jump into the abyss of space of teeth, 

the abyss of his Azazel’s teeth, which he's just like space with teeth. Like that's what he is. 

Mike: And eyes..

Jessika: And eyes. Yeah, that's right.

He does have eyes too, but he's just like a bunch of Maltz mostly. Yeah. So Morpheus does it. He does the thing and jumps in, finds them, captures his Azazel  after he tries to go back on his word of letting them go. If he'd have found his company. And then asks his Raven friend, Matthew, to tell Nada that he needs to talk with her because he has some apologizing to do, 

Mike: Mm

Jessika: The inhabitants of hell [00:46:00] begun to return as the new angel leaders look on and dream meets with nada and makes a pitiful attempt at half-apology and Nada slaps him and in doing so extracts an actual apology, which it shouldn't take that much.

But Dream seems to realize how he's in the wrong. 

Although he almost immediately negates that understanding by once again, asking her to be the queen of the dream realm. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Bro. She was, and she was like, bro, we've done this already. I don't want to do this. I already said no to you once. And 

I meant it. 

Mike: I really appreciate that gaming does not make dream this infallible being, he very much shows like, no, he is. A flawed dude 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: and he doesn't always get things immediately.

Jessika: Yeah,

That was really interesting. [00:47:00] That piece of it, I mean, dream has to concede, but he he basically says, let's go discuss your future. 

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Which is really neat, cause he's taken her whole life away and, and then some, and he's in a, he's a negative said this blank she's for thousands of years been tortured in hell.

Like how do you even make that up? 

Mike: Exactly. And that was actually something that I was curious about the first time I read it, I'm like, how do you make this right? cause that's, that is so much red in the ledger.

Jessika: That's What I was thinking too. It's like, oh, okay, well, what are you going to do now, dude, aspire flowers and be like, well, babe, 

Mike: What about you chocolates? I only ate half of them.

Jessika: right? It's Valentine's day it's. This is what we do. Right. So, so Loki who was supposed to have been taken back to his cave of acid dripping wonder 

Mike: His torture cave,

Jessika: his torture cave with a snake and a woman. And torture. 

Mike: where he is [00:48:00] bound in the entrails of his own son and his wife catches venom dripped from a snake's fang. And then occasionally when she empties the cup, that's catching the phenom. It causes him to shake the earth and agony. And that's why we get earthquakes. Norse mythology is a thing. 

Jessika: Yes. And so Loki though has switched places, the little trickster he is with Suzano No-Ol-Mikoto who was sent back to the cavern to be forever tortured, which is rough. He didn't do anything. And then he tries to cut a deal with dream, to not get them sent back. 

Mike: he, he does like, he actually cuts a deal with him.

Jessika: I mean, he does cut a deal He does, which. Guy, are you at least get a, go get the other homie from the blade? He doesn't, he doesn't even go other homes.

Mike: yeah, he does 

Jessika: like he does. 

Mike: Yeah, he does. He says what I'll do is, as I will, I will basically create , an illusion of you in that tormented space. 

Jessika: Okay. I must have missed that part because I 

was just like guy. [00:49:00] 

Mike: it's a throwaway line. It's he basically sits there and he says like, but if I do that, you owe me a favor. 

Jessika: Okay. I mean, I got that part of it. I was like, you're getting out of this, but like, whoa, 

Mike: I have a lot of favorite moments in this, in this volume, but that was one of my favorites where dream asks him and he's like, why did you choose Susano No O Mikoto, but Loki basically just says, yeah, I just really don't like thunder gods.

And I was like, 

Jessika: Which all 

Mike: also I love how much of just a turd Thor is throughout the entire time that he appears he's such a gross dude. 

Like there's 

Jessika: gross. 

Mike: the bit where he's trying to hit on bass and he's like, do you want to touch my hammer? It gets bigger when you play with it. I'm like, blech

Jessika: it was so bad. And that he's just trashed. He's just like,Ugh. 

Mike: Well, I think bast actually scratches up his face too, which I thought was great. 

Jessika: Yup. Yup.

Mike: but it's funny because I read this in the nineties, give or take my only exposure to Thor in comic [00:50:00] books before that had been Thor, the superhero, and this was such a wildly different take on him.

I was like, this is amazing cause Thor was awful and mythology.

Jessika: Yeah.

Oh Yeah. there were definitely some, questionable stories that I have read. Yes. 

Mike: Anyway, I really enjoyed that. 

Jessika: yeah. So we also find out that Nuala that was one of the two ferries is being left in the dream realm, even though the ferry deal was not the one that panned out her bros, just like, see ya. I, I wasn't ever supposed to bring you back. You're staying regardless. 

Mike: Yeah. You're, a gift from the court to dream. 

Jessika: Which, and he's just like, okay. And he's like, oh, by the way, I don't dig glamour here. So you can just drop the glitz. You're glimmering right now. And then she's just this little petite, mousy hair, smaller elf looking, which, you know what I did not, I didn't like the whole idea that, she had to be, [00:51:00] that, 

That she felt like she had to glamour to begin with. And that, that was a whole thing. 

Mike: I don't know what part of mythology it is, but, but one of the European pieces of mythology is that the elves have an ability to wrap themselves in illusion. in that they're actually these kinds of weird, gross little things. So that, that was tying into kind of the European folklore. But yeah, it's a thing. I don't remember if she shows up in later issues. I think she does, but I don't remember.

Jessika: I mean, that would suck to just be like, by the way you live in the dream realm now oh and we're never featuring you again. Double rough. 

Mike: yeah, 

Jessika: Yeah. So after dream is like, nah, you gotta be you, boo. He goes and puts not a soul into a newborn child basically. So it's assumed that she will get to live the life that dream took from her so many centuries ago. 

Mike: Yeah. He basically, he, he gives her the opportunity to live life again, kind of wiping the slate clean, which is, mean, let's be honest. That's probably the best offer that [00:52:00] he can give her.

Jessika: He also puts her in a male body, which like, talk about like leveling up, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Come on. You're already doing better.

Mike: Yeah. And then he has that really nice moment where he says something along the lines of I will remember you and love you matter what body wear. And you will always be welcome in the dream realm. I have my quibbles with, with Dream, especially with this whole storyline. But I feel like that was arguably the best solution he could have come up with.

Jessika: Oh I agree. Yeah, when I did see that, that was the solution. I mean, you can't provide somebody with multiple lifetimes, but you can take away the pain of knowing that that happened and provide them with a new life that you don't interfere with.

I thought it was a good, a good deal. I guess. All things considered. 

Mike: Yeah.

Jessika: We then cut to Lucifer, wingless, chilling on a beach, looking at the sunset where he is approached by an older man who walks [00:53:00] over and make small, talk about the sunset with him and stay till, see him tomorrow. If he's still there and Lucifer admitting that the sunset is actually really beautiful, goddammit and giving some credit to the creator. And we end the volume with the two new leaders of hell going around and making quote unquote changes 

Mike: yeah.

Jessika: the way things are. Basically, they're still going to be torture, but it's supposed to be phrased differently as a rehabilitation, but the angels don't quite understand the meaning of the tortures of hell, which makes it even worse. 

Mike: Yeah. It's so uncomfortably abusive where they're like, no, we're doing this because we love you. And one day you'll thank us for it.

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: you're just like, woo. 

Jessika: It's it was a gross abuser situation. 

Mike: Yeah. And then there's that bit where one of the souls is like, no, you don't understand that makes it worse.

Jessika: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh Yeah. And unfortunately the angels start to embrace their [00:54:00] roles in the endless pain and suffering. 

Mike: Yeah. And that's actually, that's something that is, brought back to the forefront in Lucifer, the series that Mike Carey wrote in the late nineties to early odds, which I've talked about this before, but like that series is also, I think just as good as Sandman. It's really great, we also see a lot of pantheons of different gods getting pulled into Lucifer's machinations and there's a whole thing where he makes things difficult for the angels running hell.

Jessika: Oh, I'm excited to see it 

Mike: It's very good.

Jessika: Well what were your overall impressions of the story and who were your favorite or least favorite characters or events of this? 

Mike: It’s actually hard to sit there and talk about just a couple of favorite moments because I really love this collection. I loved it when I first read it. I still love it. I love the strange sadness of the overall story and the original takes on the gods. And also, I really love the twist that heaven takes over [00:55:00] the running of hell.

We talked about how I really enjoyed Dream kind of, spoiling the plot twist about Loki, having switched places with Susano. And, I really soured on Dream as a character in these early issues over time. I dunno it, like, when I read this as a kid, I was like, oh, okay. He feels bad about his actions. And is going to rescue this woman that he loves from hell and now I'm like, motherfucker, you put her in hell. And she details how awful her time there was like, come on, dude, you condemned her there for millennia just because she wouldn't marry you?Like, get fucked.

Jessika: And then you said, I guess I did something bad if that's how you feel. 

Mike: it wasn't even, you didn't even come to this realization  on your own. You had to be told by multiple people that you fucked up. Like a mediocre white guy in his thirties, you sat there and dug your heels and went no, no. Well, 

maybe

Jessika: “I don’t think that’s right.” 

Mike: maybe. All right, fine. [00:56:00] It's like, whatever,

Jessika: Oh, no. 

Mike: like that. I'm coming down harsher on dream than you are.

Jessika: No, but that's how I felt about it too. I mean, you're just doing all the work. I'm just going to sit back and ride this ride because I'm like, I'm there with you, but I'm like passenger seat. I'm chilling. Like I don't need to be the navigator. We have maps now we have Google maps.

It's fine. 

Mike: I’m sitting there swinging my arms and getting all mad and getting the cardio.

Jessika: Oh yeah. And I'm doing the pumping our movement of the trucks next to me. You know, I'm just along for this ride. No, I agree. He's a shit heel and a lot of these, and I'm like, I have had more than a few moments where I think to myself, how am I supposed to feel about this character? But then I think to myself, no, that's a good character.

But then I think to myself, no: That’s a good character. That's a good character, because that means it's complex. It's more realistic because that's what people. 

Mike: Yeah. To be honest, he is that privileged male character who has never had to really stop and think about his [00:57:00] actions really not have things go his way. 

And we are now at the part of tonight's program where we are finding out after having fucked around for a while.

Jessika: Fucked around so hard. So Well, I really enjoyed the banquet and I really liked the different interactions between the different mythologies and how they behaved and what they ate. And it was really funny, but I also thought it was very thoughtful. In the way that it was done.

And similarly with the way that each party had a different way and signal to meet with dream, it just really showed his understanding and empathy by adapting to each of his guests needs. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: Or perhaps he's just used to doing this for each individual's dreams. 

Mike: Well, it's a little bit open to interpretation because in other episodes you see his appearance changed. Like there was, you know, he was Meowpheus.

Jessika: Yep. 

Mike: So my take on him is that his appearance. Doesn't change. It's just, we [00:58:00] perceive them in different ways. And because we are, you know, people reading the story, we are seeing him in his siblings manifest as people. 

Jessika: That’s very astute, sir. 

Mike: But yeah, I mean, like you looked at like the different art styles that came into play when he was meeting with the different gods. And I mean, I, I still think about how doesn' het have like a tea ceremony with Suzano when they're, when they're talking. And then I feel like it's much darker and moodier when he meets with Odin.

And then again, the art style changes again when he meets with Bast. 

Jessika: Yeah. Well, speaking of art, did you, did you have a favorite art moment in this volume? 

Mike: Yeah. okay. So you remember how last time we talked about how I have this, one defining moment where in Men of Good Fortune hob has these three panels where his face changes? 

Yeah. There's a couple of different images throughout the series that I always just kind of have pop up in my head when I think about it.

And one of them is from this volume and it's the bit where he's inside a Zazzle and [00:59:00] he's like prying open the mouse and the empty space and he's floating around it feels kind of more traditionally action comic booky, and the way that it's drawn, that's not a bad thing. It's just, for some reason it feels that way.

And I, I think it's really good. and I also really liked how at the end of it, he reveals that he is trapped. Azazel in a jar. It's very in keeping with how Gaiman would resolve conflict in ways that could be a giant battle, but instead they're very clever. , it was like when they had the battle between him and Dr.Destiny, and then afterwards you get the field of white and then it turns out he's just sitting in the Palm of dream's hand.

Jessika: Yes. Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Jessika: So good. 

Mike: I'm curious, you're approaching this with fresh eyes because this is the first time you've read through this. So I'm wondering, do you have the same moments or are they different?

Jessika: I actually thought Morpheus had a lot of really good billowing robe moments. 

Mike: Yes.

Jessika: Like, I mean, they didn't have, I think they may have had like one semi-full page of like a billowy robes situation. But there were quite a few shots of him, like floating into [01:00:00] hell and he was just making an entrance 

Mike: yeah. I was just thinking that

Jessika: here for it.

Yeah. 

Mike: he's got his helm 

Jessika: Yeah. 

Mike: the bit where 

Jessika: dressed up. This is the met gala. He is here. 

Mike: Yes. And then what I really liked about that was there's that moment where Lucifer is like, are you afraid of me? And more visas? Like, yes. And I'm like, all right. Not, your difficult comic book.

All right. Cool.

Jessika: Just being real between you and I. Absolutely. 

Mike: That was great.

Jessika: Yeah.

So I really like, again, to your point about what you really enjoyed was the kind of feeling of movement of probably him floating through space and having that action feeling. That's what I really liked about the billowy ropes. Was it just, I could almost see them moving, 

and I could feel the movement of him floating down, which was so neat. Yeah. Well, let's move along to our brain wrinkles. [01:01:00] 

Mike: All right.

Jessika: So this is the one thing comics or comic-related. That has just been sticking in our noggin since the last time we spoke. So, what is it for you? 

Mike: Well, Sarah and I had our anniversary this week, and she got me this really cool book called American Comic Book Chronicles, the 1990s by Jason Sachs and Keith Dallas. Do you remember those American century books from time life? They were those prestige format  photo history books, and they would document major moments in America and world history from across the 20th.

Jessika: I do. Yup. 

Mike: I feel like every school library had a complete volume. 

Jessika: Exactly. 

Mike: So this is like that except for Comics. And so it's really cool. And nobody should be surprised at this point to hear that I particularly love comics from the eighties and nineties. And as I'm reading through this book, it's reminding me about how absolutely insane the early nineties were when it came to the comic book industry and [01:02:00] also just comic collecting in general. So I think we're going to have to do an episode where we talk about something related to that topic sooner or later, probably sooner. it has been rattling around my head for the past couple of days where I just reread I've read the stuff that some of it, I knew some of it I didn't and all of it's insane.

Jessika: well, let's definitely talk sooner rather than later, because let's go back to childhood. 

Mike: All right. You talked me into it. We're going to do a nineties episode at some point. It's fine. FINE!

Jessika: Twisted his arm. There's no violence on this podcast. I'm a pacifist. God dammit. 

Mike: Uh, but yeah, that's me. What about you?

Jessika: Well, Mike, you told me about the podcast Bitches on Comics, which, okay. I'm not going to lie to you. I've binged the first 45 episodes since you told me about it less than a week ago, you haven't, it hasn't been a week. 

Mike: I can't remember. I know it's been about a week. [01:03:00] I really like that show.

Jessika: It's been about a week. Okay. It's so good. And they have their, I mean, they're very queer, which are, you know, a hundred percent I'm here for, and I got to tell you, they, 

Mike: Like more queer fans of comic books. Oh, no.

Jessika: Oh, no.

Well, and they have this thing in there where they're. There aren't a lot of queer podcasts about comic books and I'm like, wait, we're here now, here we are. Pick us. 

Mike: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, can we come talk to, you want to have us on, or do you want to come on our show? Like, whatever you want to talk about, it's fine. 

Jessika: I, will awkwardly approach them with my bag lunch and ask if I can sit with them. 

Mike: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. They're great. their Mojo episode, I thought was really interesting and I wound up tweeting with them for a little while because they pointed out that there really aren't many characters like mojo. And I think I made a good point with him. I mentioned how Superman's bill and Mr. Mxyzptlk might be another equivalent character[01:04:00] where he's all about throwing shit up in the air and, disrupting everything but no, they, they were great.

Jessika: So good. Well, they, in episode three, they introduced me to the novel, the refrigerator monologues, which delves into the, the idea of women in comics being fridged or killed just for entertainment sake, or to drive a plot narrative, or to make the, the main hero sad, or, basically as a plot tool and the refrigerator monologues delves into it as first-person accounts of female superheroes and how they had been used. And I went and listened to it because you can find it. I kept it on hooplah actually. So I listened to it for free and it was an audiobook. 

It was very, very good. And he talked about them not having autonomy or storylines of their own. it got me thinking about the way that we write characters and who we are allowed to succeed in [01:05:00] any given situation. I don't know, I just, I highly recommend this book and I highly recommend listening to Bitches on Comics because they have got me just like thinking about shit. 

Mike: Yeah, you and I should talk about a Hawk and Dove from DC in the 1980s and how they just did the most egregious fringing of Dove in a 1991 crossover in a way that was really bad. it's one of those things where I still talk about it. I've been talking about it for 20 years because it's so wild.

Jessika: Man. Well.I guess we'll have a really uplifting conversation about that later. I'm sure I'm going to have no zero opinions about that. 

Mike: No.

Jessika: I tell you, I commit now. No opinions. I can't commit to that. Everyone knows I'm crossing my fingers behind the camera here. Oh, so everyone listened to bitches on comics.They're amazing. 

Mike: yeah. 

Jessika: so Yeah. that's, that's it for my, my wrinkles. 

Mike: Speaking as a mediocre white guy, it's a fucking great [01:06:00] podcast. my opinion should matter 0% in this, but it's a really good show. And even if you're one of those people where you're like, I don't know, give it a shot. It’s great..

Jessika: Seriously. Give it a shot. All right. Well, we catch you in two weeks where we will have another episode. 

Mike: Oh, fuck. I should probably do some research. Shouldn't I?

Jessika: Oh, yeah, that is your episode. We kind of do these on an, every other kind of a situation. Someone needs to fill Mike in on how we do this. 

Mike: All right. Look, I was never a good student. Why do you think I spent ten years in college?

Jessika: Oh, no shit. I knew I shouldn't have done a group project. Well, folks until then we'll see it in the stacks. 

Mike: Thanks for listening to Ten Cent Takes. Accessibility is important to us. transcriptions of each of our published episodes can be found on our website.

Jessika: This episode was hosted by Jessica [01:07:00] Frasier, me, and Mike Thompson. Written by Jessica Frazier and edited by Mike Thompson. Our intro theme was written and performed by Jared Emerson Johnson of Bay Area Sound, our credits and transition music is pursuit of life by Evan McDonald and was purchased with a standard license from freemium beat.

Our banner graphics were designed by Sarah Frank, who goes by Lookmomdraws on Instagram. 

Mike: If you'd like to get in touch with us, ask us questions or tell us about how we got something wrong. Please head over to 10 cent takes.com or shoot an email to Tencenttakes@gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter. The official podcast account is Tencenttakes. Jessika is Jessikawitha. And Jessika is spelled with a K and Mike is vansau., V a N a U

Jessika: If you'd like to support us, be sure to download, rate and review wherever you live. 

Mike: stay safe out [01:08:00] there.

Jessika: And support your local comic shop,